Mutant Xweetok.

For discussion of new pet colours- speculation and discussion of colours in general should be placed in New Features or Misc.
Trick
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Post by Trick »

Hamsters can be vicious wee beasties, they're pretty much the only animal that has ever bitten me (the other being my cat when he was wee but that didn't break the skin). I find it silly too that they are aimed at small children so much! They can be great pets with the right owners though ^__^

I adore rats I have to say and always have done, I used to always want one as a pet when I was younger (too much reading of The Secret of Nimh no doubt). Now I'm really glad I wasn't allowed as I didn't have the internet back then and I would have marched into a pet shop to get one and not known what to do.

I can understand people's fears as they are by nature irrational, but I can also understand people taking it personally. I know I tend to get very defensive when people are saying things about cats (admittedly not as common as rat comments)... and I'm a pretty laid back person, hee.
Hawk
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Post by Hawk »

I know I tend to get very defensive when people are saying things about cats (admittedly not as common as rat comments)... and I'm a pretty laid back person, hee.
:D I know how that feels - I do the same thing when people make comments about birds. I eventually figured out that it's really hard to change someone's mind about things like that. It's still a little annoying though.
Ziggy
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Post by Ziggy »


No they were responisble. But so were dogs, cats, people, horses, cows, and any other animal that lived around people. In other words rat fleas attacked any mammal if they couldn't find rats, and those mammals carried it as well.


Im going to have to disagree, at least if we're talking about the famous 'black death'. There is a lot of speculation now that the black death was NOT bubonic plague, which admittedly IS spread by rat fleas (among other animal fleas) but an airborne disease. I wish I could find the site which had the whole load of info on it, but basically, people now believe it was spread by human contact. One reason was because of the amazing speed with which it spread. It spread overseas quickly, and how would a rat make that crossing so quickly, especially without ships? It crossed many boundaries and wasn't slowed down by the kinds of geographical obstacles which would hinder a rat. There was a whole load of other good arguments for why the black death wasn't a case of bubonic plague and thusly had nothing to do with rats. But either way, its still silly for people to fear pet rats because they link them to the plague since the plague was spread by the black rat, and all pet rats are norway rats, a completely different species :P

Of course, Im no expert on it but a lot of it seemed plausible to me.

As for India's problem, it is related to their rodent population, but I can't remeber if rats were the primary carrier of it over there.

In some parts of india, rats are worshipped. You probably know about the temple of Kanimata where the rats run free and are fed and worshipped by people who believe they are reincarnations of their dead relatives. They're protected and its forbidden to kill them. There was even something like if you accidently step on one and kill it, you're forced to donate a statue of a rat made of solid gold! The rats are protected and encouraged here yet there has never been a plague outbeak in this part of india, which is interesting to say the least. There has been plague outbreaks in parts of india with no rat temple.


Do they bite like hamsters? :? I've been bitten by one of them before, and that was very painful. Of course that hamster's teeth were over-grown...

I don't think I've ever been bitten by a hamster but they have the same tooth structure so I'd imagine its the same, just that a rats teeth are a lot bigger :P Luckily, they virtually never bite. But when they do, it scars. I have a few scars caused by rats.



I've actually found hamsters to be the least friendly of the rodents. I've never had rats, but my mice were friendlier and so were my friend's gerbils. It's silly then that hamsters are the preferred small mammal pet for kids.

It amazes me too, and it makes my heart sink a little too. I know there are nice friendly hamsters out there, no doubt. But in general, they're much more likely to bite than a rat. This is mainly due to the fact that rats have a social structure, like wolves, and they tend to see their human owner as their alpha, hence biting them isn't socially acceptable; a subordinate rat doesn't bite its alpha. Rats don't bite each other unless they're really really serious about something. They usually just scream a lot and do some 'look at me, aren't I big and strong!' posturing. Thats usually what you'll get from a pissed off rat rather than a bite. I've only ever been bitten twice in 8 years, both times by the same rat, one time being completely my own fault.
Hamsters, however, particularly the golden hamsters, are solitary animals. They have no social heirarchy or any reason not to bite someone whose pissing them off. They seem to bite first, ask questions later. Rats only bite as an absolute last resort, its just not how they deal with each other, their social structure is a little more involved and complex.
And yet when you suggest a rat to someone instead of a hamster for their kid, they come out with 'ooh no, I'd never have a rat!' It makes me sad. They're fantastic kids pets, and much more robust than hamsters too. They stand up to a kid's rough handling a lot better, and take it with good humour.
Scythemantis
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Post by Scythemantis »

Kamil wrote:
And, finally, thank you for posting that picture, Scythe, I'll only wake up screaming five or six times tonight - I'll be sure to remember you when that happens. ^^

I refuse to believe you can be afraid of something that constantly wants me to hold it so it can curl up in my hands and lick me.

Lots of people are afraid of naked rodent tails, but that's still the dumbest thing on the face of the earth to be afraid of. I know phobias are real, but I deny them anyway. I insist that people subconciously MAKE themselves afraid of dumbassed things because they're hooked on the melodrama. They like making a scene over nothing and they enjoy bewildering people with descriptions of their "phobia".

I also want to call BS on childhood trauma. Anyone can suck it up and get over that. It's not out of your control. That's a bunch of freudian mumbo jumbo.
Ziggy
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Post by Ziggy »

Scythemantis wrote:
Lots of people are afraid of naked rodent tails, but that's still the dumbest thing on the face of the earth to be afraid of.
I've NEVER been able to remotely understand that one either.
I mean, why? Because its bald? Human babies are bald too, and I don't see too many people recoiling in disgust at them (myself excluded). Something being bald doesn't instantly make it gross, I just can't understand it. Their tails are bald for a reason; they regulate their body temperature via them. A hot rat has a hot tail, a cold rat has a cold tail. I love rat tails, they're so smooth and nice.
sgt_pooh
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Post by sgt_pooh »

Our hamster was nice. Jack only bit me once in three years and it was my fault for making him mad. I loved the little guy.

I've never been around rats or mice, but just looking at the forum rats, I think I would not be afraid. I still prefer my cats and dogs, but rodents don't scare me. Snakes don't either, unless it's a poisonous one. Cottonmouths, especially, because my ex almost died from a bite when we were dating.

The only fear I have are flying bugs. (Sorry, bug lovers) There is no real reason, but even moths scare me when they fly at me. If it flies, I don't go near it. Irrational, I know, but there it is.
Lakota
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Post by Lakota »

Ziggy wrote:
No they were responisble. But so were dogs, cats, people, horses, cows, and any other animal that lived around people. In other words rat fleas attacked any mammal if they couldn't find rats, and those mammals carried it as well.


Im going to have to disagree, at least if we're talking about the famous 'black death'. There is a lot of speculation now that the black death was NOT bubonic plague, which admittedly IS spread by rat fleas (among other animal fleas) but an airborne disease. I wish I could find the site which had the whole load of info on it, but basically, people now believe it was spread by human contact. One reason was because of the amazing speed with which it spread. It spread overseas quickly, and how would a rat make that crossing so quickly, especially without ships? It crossed many boundaries and wasn't slowed down by the kinds of geographical obstacles which would hinder a rat. There was a whole load of other good arguments for why the black death wasn't a case of bubonic plague and thusly had nothing to do with rats. But either way, its still silly for people to fear pet rats because they link them to the plague since the plague was spread by the black rat, and all pet rats are norway rats, a completely different species :P

Of course, Im no expert on it but a lot of it seemed plausible to me.
Then what does this site purpose caused the Black Death? Plague has characteristic symptoms, and those symptoms were present in Black Death cases. The accounts mentioned ugly bubos that formed on the body in one form (they even recognized that were 2 forms of the disease ^^), and we know bubonic plague causes that. If you ask me, the reason the Black Death was so bad back then was because people had no natural immunity against it. When a group of people have no natural immunity against a disease, that disease does spread very quickly.

In addition there are 3 forms of the Plague (Black Death): bubonic plague (infects the lymph glands I think; it was not as deadly), one that infects blood (not as common; somewhat deadly), and pnenumia(?) plague (infects the lungs; was very deadly). They can still be considered the same disease because the same bacteria causes them. So when some books talk of the Black Death, they are refering to all 3 forms of the disease. Bubonic plague was caught by direct contact with infected individuals/animals or from the bite of an infected flea. The pnemonia form was air-borne; and that one was the one that took out half of Europe. ;) Same bacteria, same disease, different form. I think the reason you're spekical is because you're only looking at one form of the disease and that form happens to be the least deadly.

It's not just the rats that you need to look at for the spread. Look at the fleas and bacteria. The fleas could travel those bondaries and infect the local black rats, which are fairly common in Europe. Rats themselves are fairly adaptable too, so they can travel fairly well. And once a good number of people were infected, others caught it from those people instead of rats. That's esp. true when it became air-borne.

But who knows. You can't rely on all accounts from the past either, esp. since these people didn't make the connection at the time. We had to rely on contemp. reports from India for comparsion.

There's certainly no reason to fear pet rats for the plague now. Most owners keep their rats fairly healthy. :)
As for India's problem, it is related to their rodent population, but I can't remeber if rats were the primary carrier of it over there.

In some parts of india, rats are worshipped. You probably know about the temple of Kanimata where the rats run free and are fed and worshipped by people who believe they are reincarnations of their dead relatives. They're protected and its forbidden to kill them. There was even something like if you accidently step on one and kill it, you're forced to donate a statue of a rat made of solid gold! The rats are protected and encouraged here yet there has never been a plague outbeak in this part of india, which is interesting to say the least. There has been plague outbreaks in parts of india with no rat temple.
That's because the plague can result from other rodent populations too. Plague can infect any rodent, but rats are the normal host due to their fleas. It is not limited to them though.

That is interesting. I had epi last spring, and the teacher was talking about plague during one lecture; she mentioned this oddity too. I think the reason is because in India there's a different vector instead of the black rat. :? I don't remeber though, and I don't feel like dragging out my epi book to look.
Do they bite like hamsters? :? I've been bitten by one of them before, and that was very painful. Of course that hamster's teeth were over-grown...

I don't think I've ever been bitten by a hamster but they have the same tooth structure so I'd imagine its the same, just that a rats teeth are a lot bigger :P Luckily, they virtually never bite. But when they do, it scars. I have a few scars caused by rats.
So it's sharp and painful, but they let go. Mice don't. >_<

I've actually found hamsters to be the least friendly of the rodents. I've never had rats, but my mice were friendlier and so were my friend's gerbils. It's silly then that hamsters are the preferred small mammal pet for kids.

It amazes me too, and it makes my heart sink a little too. I know there are nice friendly hamsters out there, no doubt. But in general, they're much more likely to bite than a rat. This is mainly due to the fact that rats have a social structure, like wolves, and they tend to see their human owner as their alpha, hence biting them isn't socially acceptable; a subordinate rat doesn't bite its alpha. Rats don't bite each other unless they're really really serious about something. They usually just scream a lot and do some 'look at me, aren't I big and strong!' posturing. Thats usually what you'll get from a pissed off rat rather than a bite. I've only ever been bitten twice in 8 years, both times by the same rat, one time being completely my own fault.
Hamsters, however, particularly the golden hamsters, are solitary animals. They have no social heirarchy or any reason not to bite someone whose pissing them off. They seem to bite first, ask questions later. Rats only bite as an absolute last resort, its just not how they deal with each other, their social structure is a little more involved and complex.
And yet when you suggest a rat to someone instead of a hamster for their kid, they come out with 'ooh no, I'd never have a rat!' It makes me sad. They're fantastic kids pets, and much more robust than hamsters too. They stand up to a kid's rough handling a lot better, and take it with good humour.
Yeah my mice were actually much better with my 6 and 3 year old neighbours when they played with them. The kids were careful, but they did do some things to the mice that my old hamster would not have tolerated from me when he was alive. :?

Just about any rodent is better than a hamster it seems. Though those can make decent pets too on occansion... It's sad that rats, mice, and gerbils are overlooked since they seem a bit more suited for family life.
Cyaneus
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Post by Cyaneus »

Ziggy wrote:I've NEVER been able to remotely understand that one either.
I mean, why? Because its bald? Human babies are bald too, and I don't see too many people recoiling in disgust at them (myself excluded). Something being bald doesn't instantly make it gross, I just can't understand it. Their tails are bald for a reason; they regulate their body temperature via them. A hot rat has a hot tail, a cold rat has a cold tail. I love rat tails, they're so smooth and nice.
When I first held an opossum's tail, despite owning mice and liking rats, I found it creepy. Mostly because an opossum's body temperature is noticeably lower than that of most mammals, but the scales were also rough and altogether the tail had an inflexible, dead feel to it. But the rest of the opossum was absolutely adorable, so I got over it.

And now possums are my favorite marsupial.

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Deku
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Post by Deku »

I really don't like it. I adore rats, but this..........fugly and creepy. Not good. The colour is just boring and bad, too.

Blech. 1/10.
Spivsy
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Post by Spivsy »

You copied me, cyaneus =P. Possums are my favourite mammals.


My rats sometimes bite me, mostly my dumbo- steve. But he's a bit mad anyway, I found him running around my hooded (podge) in circles once.
Scythemantis
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Post by Scythemantis »

Actually the black death DIDN'T have the right symptoms for Bubonic, and it spread much, much, much too fast and too far.

It's believed to have been a human-to-human or airborne virus, like Ziggy said, and probably only ended because it went into a natural dormancy.
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Post by Cranberry »

I like the Xweetok, but the recolors are definitely better than the original. I like the chocolatey-brown one the best.

I had a black and white rat named Darien years ago, and he was a great pet. He never bit anyone, and he loved people. My whole family thought he was great and we let him run around free a lot of the time. We had two cats, but they were afraid of him and left him alone. And hee, once a bunch of wasps built a hive in one of our walls, so we had an exterminator come take care of it. He came inside and asked to use the phone, so I directed him to it. The phone was right beside the rat cage, but the guy didn't notice the rat at first -- halfway through the call, he turned around, saw Darien, yelped, and yelled "WHY would ANYONE keep a RAT as a PET!?" We just laughed at him. I've owned gerbils and babysat a hamster, and I have to say that rats are definitely the friendliest of those rodents (though gerbils are pretty cool, too).
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EarwenAncalime
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Err...

Post by EarwenAncalime »

:shock:

Mainly it scares me but would be a cool pet to have! I dunno i'm pretty indiffernet over it. Rats and Mice don't scare me though i don't particularly love them either.
Lakota
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Post by Lakota »

Scythemantis wrote:Actually the black death DIDN'T have the right symptoms for Bubonic, and it spread much, much, much too fast and too far.

It's believed to have been a human-to-human or airborne virus, like Ziggy said, and probably only ended because it went into a natural dormancy.
I just wrote that the bacteria can infect the lungs of victims, creating pneumonic plague; that form IS air-borne, is spread from human-to-human, and can spread quickly. It was the 2nd most common form and the most deadly, able to kill victims within one day after they've been exposed (without modern treatment). Bubonic plague sometimes occured with this version of the plague in the same individual, so it is still possible that the Black Death was caused by Y. pestis (that's the scientic name of the bacteria). It started as a rodent disease spread in part by fleas and later became air-borne after it started infecting people. Bacteria and viruses have the ability to mutate like that.

I wonder how long natural dormancy is supposed to last. Major outbreaks occured in 541-542 CE, the 1300s (the Black Death proper), the 1400s, the 1500s, and the 1600s. The last major outbreak of something like the Plague happened in 1855 (if we ignore India of course where it seems to continue). All of these major outbreaks were wide-spread; most were considered pandemics (minus the Americas and Australia for the early ones). The last one in 1855 was pandemic in its proper use and was how the disease became relatively established in North America's piarre dog. I wonder why it hasn't reoccured yet (esp. in Europe which has been free of it completely-- doesn't occur in people or rodents there) since it seemed to be fairly active in the past. :?

There's a way to predict outbreaks-- study the population dymanics of rats and other rodents. If they are experiencing a sharp decline due to an outbreak, there's an incresed chance a similar outbreak will occur in the human population. The two have paralleled each other during past plague outbreaks.
Jazzy
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Post by Jazzy »

Better personal hygiene, less contmination of the water table, avoidance of human waste as fertiliser and so on. In India, they still do the last because it can be cheaper than getting non-human fertiliser, but it's a wonderful way to spread disease.
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