Achievements and Tales of Woe

For discussion of the Subeta pet site, including new colours and other features.
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Foghawk
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Foghawk » 26 Jun 2013 07:11 am

(I would support a battle thread.)

Quick suggestion:
Ierosbats wrote:If you have a collection of teeth/bones, like me and Ty, then it's frustrating when an unusual item that fits that theme is released into the battle system under battle prices.
Make weapons fissionable, with a one-off option to create an item with the same image but no weapon stats?
Ierosbats wrote:I don't get how economies work, but I feel like this one is broken and at times that's scary.
I shouldn't start rambling about this, because I talk too much at the best of times and I don't have a thorough grounding in this either. But yeah, it's broken. And I think I know why: because the vast majority of money moving through the site has nothing to do with the game. Subeta has two ways to get very rich very fast. One is to pump in cash—buy CSC, sell for sP—and one is to sell creativity. I honestly had no idea how big that second market was until I got into it, but it's insane. I have literally earned more in one job—this is maybe an evening's work all told, right—than I had ever had at one time before. In, what, five years on Subeta? It blows my mind.

And both of those markets are fundamentally unregulatable. (Not to mention a total afterthought when it comes to presentation on the site. Profile-selling is such a second-class citizen I have to make a dummy trade every time I want to do a money transfer.) Subeta can't force artists to sell more or less art, or try to control prices—they could ban the graphics market entirely, I suppose, but let's face it, we would all be up in arms. They could decrease the sP value of CSC, but they're not going to. Of course they won't. And they're sure as hell not going to clamp down on the CW system; it's practically printing money! Staff can adjust the rarity or the availability of a few desirable items, but the amount of control they have over the vast majority of GDP is effectively nil, and no number of sP sinks or item-junking mechanisms will change that.

Sure, all that sP has to be earned by somebody before it can change hands for user profiles or custom wears. And it can be done; god knows I don't try to restock without an autopricer, or do my seventy-five profitable quests every day. But I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the people who do are a tiny minority. And in an artificial economy, beyond a certain point, just the ability to move money around becomes inflationary. Millions in bank interest in a day? Are they for real?

Given all that, and the fact that the site has to be geared toward the richest users, I suspect the economy can't be fixed and won't be fixed... unless the process of making a living by actually playing the game becomes somehow interesting or enjoyable. You can put your own odds on that. :P
Cranberry wrote:But I am always up for suggestions of how we could improve things, especially for people in tiers below 11 or 12. I mean it.
I know this is a base-engine issue and that that kind of thing will be waiting 'til after the recode if it happens at all, but I would flip for some kind of skill tree or moveset or crafting system. There are the obvious perks—deeper strategy, is fun and engaging (never underestimate the draw of new and interesting skill names or combat messages!), breaks up the monotony you're trying to avoid by varying weapon strengths/availability—but it can also be a really great community-building mechanic. Something like Star Wars Galaxies (RIP. What a good game), where players could teach skills to other players, or specialize in crafting or support functions. It encourages cooperation and everything! That, and if it maybe, just maybe, extended to some other parts of the site, it could do a little to alleviate the interesting-or-enjoyable issue... Is there anything like this in the pipeline?

(Also, and this is completely petty, but it's been bothering me: What is with the scaling on the opponents' stat bars on the challenge page? It's kind of useful to see their builds, I guess, but it makes it hard to, like, compare one opponent to another. And why on earth is the EXP payout scaled with the rest of the battle stats? I mean, I understand if the sheer size difference between the high and low ends would make a uniform scale infeasible, or even if it would just be complicated to change... but it's so silly!)
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Wingsrising » 26 Jun 2013 08:16 pm

Yeah, I figure that if you can't draw, and don't want to spend lots of real money, you're never going to be rich on Subeta. It's just too hard to make any substantial amount of sP by actually playing the game. I mean, 37 million "cheap"? I have 38 million in the bank right now, that's an unusually large amount for me, and it's mostly from selling items that I didn't want out of costume trunks that I bought with CSC, so from spending real money, not from playing the game.

On an unrelated note -- but related to the new challengers -- is it my imagination or is it impossible to remove items that are in the default set in the new "choose your weapons" page? So that if you have 8 items in the default set, the only way to use non-default items is to go remove things from your default set?
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Foghawk » 26 Jun 2013 08:30 pm

You need to click on them in the main armory list (that is, the faded-out versions), not in the equipped weapons list. Confused me too.
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Marah » 26 Jun 2013 09:17 pm

I agree with everything Foghawk wrote above. I already said this, but I hate that I have to buy stuff that other battlers won, instead of being able to win tier apropriate things myself. That way when my pet is big enough to beat bigger opponents, I already bought the loot I can finally win, so for me it will be less fun. I get why it is this way, (economy! And I do love the cash shop opponents) but I get everything that is said above. That subeta is geared towards the 1% (to put it that way) of the subeta players, and not towards the average player. I have 28 million in the bank, this is a lot for me. (I suck at saving). I'm now debating about buying a Reborn Wand of Doom and/or a phoenix quill (should have done that before the cash shop overhaul because the Freezewand of Doom that I need to make the Reborn Icewand of Doom that I actually need probably won't be availabe till winter). Buying one in the user shops is no problem for a fairly rich player, but simply not an option for me.
So I completely get the frustration that when trying to figure out battle sets people still keep telling you to buy the same overpriced weapons everybody else has.

I do love the return of shadow, which is an oppponent that needs specific weapons. He is fun.

As for tips, I think with an event like this releasing 2 opponents of each bracket (easy, medium etc) might give the feeling of being geared towards the bigger battlers. I think that giving the lower brackets more opponents might give more people a chance at battling. (Assuming that most players and/or newer players have lower tiered pets.)
Compare it with your senate, which has 2 representatives for each state, thereby not taking into account that some American states have a much higher population than others vs the House of Representatives, which has larger groups of people being represented by more chosen people and thus having a more fair ratio.
Am I making sense?
I do know that this was a last minute event, and I'm having fun with it! Just something for a possible future consideration.
but I would flip for some kind of skill tree or moveset or crafting system
Love this! Would also help with people having to make different battlesets fit for their specific pet.

I second, third, whatevered the amount of people that hate the waiting time in the battle shop. Again (sorry for the repetition) geared towards the bigger battlers/richest players. Most beginner/middle tier battlers don't have enough easy tokens to buy multiple potions, but building up a new battleset with new weapons that all need new crystals in the mod slots can take days now. Which is weird. Also because I believe one of the point of the mod slots was to adapt the weapons to specific opponents with crystals. This flexibility is gone now, unless you stash a few of each crystal in your vault or you lose the option of changing out 2 or 3 crystals for a day.
Maybe the waiting time can be implemented with a specific amount of tokens? Say every player with less than (what is a normal number?) 500 tokens has no waiting time?

And on the battle achievement part: I did finally got to buy my hard earned gorgun with battle tokens today!

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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Cranberry » 26 Jun 2013 10:45 pm

Battle Shop timer is gone. :)
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by AngharadTy » 26 Jun 2013 11:12 pm

Oh, hooray! I bought half a dozen crystals immediately in celebration.

edit:
You have defeated Enraged Pylot 2 times!
Progress! I hope this will actually be possible for me now. I will continue to do my luck dance and see if it works.

edit:
You have defeated Enraged Pylot 5 times!
yayyyyyyy! Topher, your advice was wonderful, thank you.

On a critical note: I had to forfeit any battle where a healer got stolen before the theft-protection fired. That's just something I knew I had to do going in and it made it not very fun. Like rolling the dice every time, except without even the neat motion and sound of rolling real dice. It's not the losses adding up that I mind (it actually went very well, considering--much luckier today than yesterday), it's the tedious waste of my time. However, I'll admit that for the last couple rounds of the fifth battle, I scooted up to the edge of my seat. I wanted to win! And I won! Woo!
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Wingsrising » 26 Jun 2013 11:39 pm

Foghawk wrote:You need to click on them in the main armory list (that is, the faded-out versions), not in the equipped weapons list. Confused me too.
Yeah, that's by no means obvious. Thanks!
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Griffin » 27 Jun 2013 09:22 am

The thing I like most about all these returning opponents is that they're giving me craaazy exp, especially in BQs. Still 1189 points to T12, but if I made this kind of exp every day I'd get there in a month and a half...!

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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Marah » 27 Jun 2013 10:35 am

Also the amount of junk is great for the fragmentizer!

PS which one is considered the easiest of the extra hard challengers? I'm trying to figure out which one I should test my battlepet against.

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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Seerow » 27 Jun 2013 02:26 pm

I don't get why the Lady of the Wind couldn't give out her old loot. I've always wanted it but could never justify the price, and now it's been changed to new stuff. I can kinda see not wanting anymore of the Teeth to go out since those are weapons but all the harpy had was a wearable. Ishka couldn't touch her last time she was available and now I had no issues which was an amazing feeling, but now I'm just depressed that I can't get her drops. If the loot had to change, why not make it a random drop she can give. Sure I might not earn one that way since I have terrible luck, but at least the price should come down a little. Win win for all.

Honestly I'd rather just not have the old challengers return at this point.

As a side note, still can't beat the Lady of the Waters :(

Edit:

Well I should probably research more into situations before I post. The Saherimos Harpy Hood which is what I wanted is actually from an achievement, not a loot drop like I thought. And apparently the achievements have been retired so there's no getting it anyway. Should probably mark those achievements as retired as it doesn't say that anywhere.
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Cranberry » 27 Jun 2013 05:26 pm

I don't really understand why people are saying they wish the old challengers hadn't come back, or that it's pointless to release them without their old achievements (as a couple people said in the news). It's fun to fight them, you get a ton of EXP and probably a tome or two (which almost always sell for at least 5mil each, closer to 8 when they haven't dropped in a while), plus you get some great new loot (including a nice, useful t6 weapon that's also a lovely wearable). No, you won't get the old achievement prizes (as those were plot prizes of a sort and we don't normally re-release plot prizes), but you get exclusive new stuff that won't be released again. Future players will be jealous and complain about you. ;)
As for tips, I think with an event like this releasing 2 opponents of each bracket (easy, medium etc) might give the feeling of being geared towards the bigger battlers. I think that giving the lower brackets more opponents might give more people a chance at battling. (Assuming that most players and/or newer players have lower tiered pets.)
I understand this and somewhat agree, but there are a couple of other things to consider. One is that challengers/loot take a fair bit of time to draw (and for us to stat), and we can usually only get six of them for any given plot because the artists have so much to do. Naturally, we just try to cover all of the difficulty levels so there's the least amount of complaining. ;) The second is that our normal, "everyday" challengers are skewed much more towards the low end -- there are only two extremely hard regular challengers plus one impossible. You can really see this when you do Battle Quests and get a lot of small guys! We try to make up for that a little during events like this one. We like to give the bigger battlers (and I don't mean huge; I mean like t6+) who train all year/do Battle Quests for exp in anticipation of events more to fight than people who maybe pick up their weapons once or twice a year. (It's not hard to get to t5 or t6 -- I started training two little pets a couple months ago and they are already at t5 -- and there are a lot of affordable weapons around that point.)
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Ierosbats » 27 Jun 2013 07:22 pm

Someone explain to me as if I am five years old why Foghawk's fissionable weapons idea wouldn't work. I swear I'm not trying to be snarky! I'm honestly curious. Because... damn! I could kiss you for that suggestion. That would be so, so great. I guess they'd probably have to make it so that (Copy) gets added to the item name of the copy, and once you make a copy both of the items would have to become No Trade (like those damn eggs that clog up your inventory) because otherwise you get into issues of trying to sell/buy and not knowing which version you're getting or if it can still be fissioned. I'd absolutely do something like that with my Tooth, and that gorgeous new weapon the Harpy drops. It's one thing to take a weapon out of your armory to wear briefly, but it's much more annoying to move it in and out of pet treasures when you need to fight with it.

I guess one of the problems is that it might actually inflate those items even more, right? Because if I split my Tooth and it becomes No Trade, it's good for me but one of a limited number of weapons gets taken out of the system forever. Hmmm. Or would that not happen because people like me, who want to buy a second Tooth for treasures, would no longer be looking to buy?

More generally, would No Trade be a good way to help control weapon prices in certain situations? For example, the mistake that happened with the Rift Staff. If it had been made clear from the start that that prize wasn't sellable wouldn't it have cut down on the amount that went out? Smaller battlers might have passed over it because they wouldn't be able to use it for a long time (versus books etc you can use right away) and bigger battlers might have passed on it if it didn't replace anything in their current set. You'd only spend a large chunk of your points on it if you really wanted it for yourself, not just to flip. For the record, the Achievement solution was pretty clever too.
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Wingsrising » 27 Jun 2013 08:20 pm

Cranberry wrote: (It's not hard to get to t5 or t6 -- I started training two little pets a couple months ago and they are already at t5 -- and there are a lot of affordable weapons around that point.)
Wait, what!?!

I started seriously training my pet in August 2012 (I handily made a forum post then so I know) and I'm at t5 now... and I think she was tier 3 already when I started. I hit Tier 5 in February and I'm still at Tier 5. And it's not like I'm training a point a day or anything, I hit the training regularly throughout the day.

I don't see taking a year to go from Tier 3 to Tier 6 -- assuming I make Tier 6 by August -- as being "not hard".

EDIT: For whatever it's worth, at Tier 5 I've been able to take on 3 of the special opponents, and can't touch 6 of them.

EDIT 2: On an unrelated note, I wish they wouldn't use Subeautique items as Item Hunt items, especially as it's not like it restocks like a normal shop anymore.
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Cranberry » 27 Jun 2013 09:31 pm

I created V1G1L-4NT on March 28th and it's a t5 now. I DO autotrain, which obviously makes it quicker, but I don't do battle quests with it or anything. I beat all of the lower opponents with it and gave it all of the earned stat booster eggs when it was below t3.

Kabus is also a t5, a bit higher than V1G1L-4NT... he had 100ish in all stats when I started autotraining him at the end of March. I also beat the lower opponents with him and gave him the eggs.

Vorpal is now t8. I autotrain him and I beat plot opponents with him when I can, but I don't do BQs with him or anything, either (all my BQ exp goes to my t12). He's a few years old, but I've only been training him since August 2011, and sort of sporadically at first.

Plagatus is my friend's pet, and she's been autotraining him, doing BQs, and fighting plot and regular opponents since she created him in July 2011. I believe she also gives him stat boosters that she earns from Shinwa and the like. He's t9 now.

If you're able to autotrain, it does give you an edge... 1000CSC will get you 40 days worth of stats, which is really awesome in lower tiers. I know that's expensive, but it's not as crazy expensive as training at someplace like Neo.
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Wingsrising » 27 Jun 2013 10:20 pm

Ah. I'm not sure think of "It's not hard if you're willing to spend $7.50 a month on training a single pet" as being the same as "not hard". Part of the complaints is that it's too hard to accomplish anything by playing the game on the site as opposed to throwing cash at the site. Now I realize the site exists to make money, but I have to say it's still disheartening. I do spend RL money on the site, but apparently the problem is that I'm not spending ENOUGH RL money on the site.

Also remember that many of didn't get to use any of the stat booster eggs to train because our pets were already at Tier 4+ when they were released.
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