Achievements and Tales of Woe

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Cranberry
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Cranberry » 27 Jun 2013 10:28 pm

You can buy the CSC with SP, though, so at least it's not necessary to spend real cash, ever.

(And yeah, Vorpal and Plagatus were both too big for the eggs when they came out.)
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Wingsrising » 27 Jun 2013 10:56 pm

OK, then, revise my previous comment to read: "Ah. I'm not sure think of 'It's not hard if you're willing to spend $7.50 a month or 26+ million sP a month on training a single pet' as being the same as 'not hard'.

(Guess how much sP I make a month? Hint: it's WAY less than 26 million.)

EDIT: I mean, yes, I'm sure that training a pet to tier 6 is reasonably fast and easy if you're willing to spend the money to autotrain (or spend sP. but earning that much sP a month is only easy if you're spending money to buy it).

But if you don't want to spend the cash to autotrain, it's not. Really, it's not. I've been training very regularly since last August and haven't quite managed it yet. I don't even want to THINK about how long it will take me to get from Tier 6 to Tier 7 (at which point I'll actually be able to use all the weapons I owned pre-tier-system again).
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Cranberry » 27 Jun 2013 11:53 pm

Are you doing battle quests every day and also shinwa quests for the boosters? Those stats add up, especially since we lowered the exp costs for lower tiers... people are gaining stats faster now than they ever have.

I'm just really not convinced there's a problem that needs fixing here. The everyday opponents are already skewed more heavily towards the lower tiers, so battle quests are as well. We changed it so that buying stats with exp costs less for lower-tiered pets. We added boosters for tiers three and lower. We doubled Shinwa's rewards, and we added intelligence boosters to the Easter shop. We're adding one monthly challenger for every tier, plus out of the four new permanent challengers we just added, three are "hard" level or below. We've seen a lot of movement in the tiers since we implemented these changes, and Keith tells me that more people are training and battling than ever. I'm not sure what else people think we should be doing for the little guys. I mean, I will obviously consider any and all suggestions, but I don't think we've been excluding the littles or anything... in fact, before this event, some of the big battlers were complaining about how we never do anything for them anymore. ;)
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Tom » 28 Jun 2013 12:34 am

As someone who has never autotrained his pet and doesn't use boosters, I think I've done pretty well to move Algebra from a tier 7, at the beginning of tiering, up to a growing tier 11. I just train whenever I can (since my smartphone has been stolen, this is a little harder!) and try to do all my battle quests every whilst pushing my limits as far as I can when I get the chance. As a 'high end' battler, I definitely appreciate the steps that have been made to make battling more accessible, but it's actually pretty dull when you get to the top. The only challenger I can't beat in BQs is Prodigy, who, realistically, I'm going to have to wait until the high end of tier 11/beginning to tier 12 to win against. I've been able to beat all other challengers since the beginning of tier 9 which I reached at the end of last October.

These events are such a blessing to most battlers who do battle every day because they actually provide us with some variety... and some challenge! Similarly, at the moment, most people will recommend you stick with a Trident because it's something that grows with your pet, is a fantastic weapon and really, there isn't much need to expand beyond it at the moment. In the upper tiers, there's a need for both a diversification of icon types, to make it worth investing in other weapons (I could buy an Ether, for example, but there's really no need) and to space out the challenge more evenly. In my opinion, that's the area that needs most work at the moment - the endgame. Capped pets on the site have little to do other than sit on their laurels. I really think the lower end is accessible, thanks to some big steps from Cranberry and Purge, and am really grateful for what they've done, but to be honest am really hoping that the remainder of the year is geared more towards the upper tiers. I know Cran has said we can expect something between GE/Saggi and Prodigy, but I do think there's a lot more potential in the upper tiers, when strategy really starts coming into focus, which has yet to be explored.
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Wingsrising » 28 Jun 2013 12:58 am

If the idea is that you can train reasonably quickly if you also do all the battle quests and Shinwa quests every day, maybe so. I can see how I'd add maybe 3 extra stat points every 2 days with Battle Quests. I don't know how good Shinwa quests are since unless things have changed, IIRC they're a pain and so I don't do them.

All I'm saying is that I disagree with dismissing leveling up to Tier 6 as trivially easy when it involves either spending money or a fair amount of playing time. (When you're talking about doing multiple sets of quests every single day, I don't see that as being terribly easy anymore.)

But maybe I'm just stung because I was pretty proud of myself for training up to Tier 5 and almost to Tier 6. Apparently I shouldn't have been.

As far as "the little guys" go... I've personally felt that there aren't all that many challengers in the Tier 5 range and I'm not sure I'll be getting any new ones in Tier 6. But that's me.
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Slugawoo » 28 Jun 2013 01:10 am

I have to agree with Wings. Training is extremely difficult if you don't have cash to throw at the site. I've been training Godspeed for years and he's only just about to hit tier 8. However, I don't bother with boosters because they cost way too much for too little reward (talking about the battle shop ones, I've honestly never had more than 50 points in any category for that shop) and I don't have time to do boring battle quests every day. The amount of time doing it + the exp I get from the challengers I can actually beat doesn't add up to enough stats when I spend my exp to be worth it for me. It's all very slow going.

I'm... okay with that though. I have to admit a lot of the problem is I just can't be bothered to apply myself to such monotonous tasks every day. The other problem being I can't buy CSC for training (not that my pet would benefit from it as much any more anyway).

That being said, I agree with the others about what's been said about the economy. It's very, very broken, and it becomes extremely apparent when you try to get into battling. I'm certain that a lot of people who start training will give up once they realise how much good weapons cost. 37 mil for a single weapon is not cheap. I've never even had more than 45 mil on my account, and that was a very short lived one time thing. I usually don't have more than 20 mil in my bank, and I assume the average user has less than 50 mil. So when everyone's go-to weapon costs 300 mil, plus all the other things needed to round out a battle set? There's something wrong there. I understand wanting to make battling challenging, but there's a point when most people just say "fuck it" and I have to admit I honestly don't know why I bother to train my pet anymore. It makes battling seem like a rich kids only club.

I really do appreciate you and Purge working so hard to make it fairer though. I can't imagine how frustrating it is trying to make it fair for everyone and I don't have any (useful) suggestions for how to fix it. (I take it "stop worrying so much about devaluing weapons so they're actually affordable to the average player" isn't gonna fly. ;p)
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Tom » 28 Jun 2013 01:33 am

Shinwa is probably the quest most worth your time. She takes about 5 minutes to finish a day . 30 battle quests probably take me about 20 minutes a day if I try and focus on them (depends on the challengers, usually get distracted) but are so, so worth it. Some days I really have to force myself, but an event like this makes it so worth it to me. There's a pretty good list here of 'average' gains per tier, from battle quests, and as you do progress through the tiers they become essential if you want to see development. I usually manage to give Algebra 3 courses a day at the centre, which makes progress really, really slow.

Honestly? I don't think 37 million is a lot to pay for a decent weapon (but the tooth is average; probably not worth that much) but even then, you're never forced to put that much money down. You can wait until your pet grows stronger so a challenger is easier; and the upper tiers are increasing accessible. The Paintbrush Blades are a really decent weapon for tier 11 pets and can be won at the beginning of the tier. The Malignant Rift Staff grows alongside your pet and is pretty available given how many were released after the plot. The Trident is, in my opinion, the best weapon on the site given how it grows with your pet, is comparable to the god weapons, has a fantastic blessing and 4 mod slots far earlier than all other weapons. In that respect, I think 300 mil is a fair price to pay for one and is something I would recommend all battlers do try to obtain. But if your ambitions are more casual, there's definitely weapons that can cater to that. It might mean your pet has to be a bit stronger, but it's definitely not the end of the world.
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by AngharadTy » 28 Jun 2013 01:47 am

300 mil might be a fair price for all that it does, but I have never had that much sP at once and honestly if I did then I would spend it on my pets and wardrobe. Because I could split it all up and make all my pets happy and make a lot of new HAs. Even with pretend money, I can't justify spending all of that on one item for something I don't even place at the highest priority on the site. I care about it, but a lot of the time, it's a tedious chore: battle quests are great except for how boring they are. Then again, that applies to most quests. At least at the end of battle quests I can spend exp, woo.

That's another minor issue for me--I spent most of my exp way wrong. No one told me "put it all in HP" when I started, and a lot of it got wasted on str/def instead. So Mezz is really well-rounded, but the Real Battlers on subeta think that's stupid. I'd love to re-spend it all, and we were told way way back that we would get to when the system got reworked, but I'm pretty sure that idea went away ages ago (and I have no idea how it could even remotely be coded--I doubt the system tracks where stat points came from). It just reminds me of my dumb-ness every time I go to spend my exp.

Also, I wish I'd bought the paintbrush blades opponent, just for the future... but t11 is so far away it seemed like a waste of money.
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Cranberry » 28 Jun 2013 02:08 am

I think a lot of this just comes back to the basic idea that if you want to do really well in some aspect of the site, you do need to devote more time and (virtual) currency to it. My pet has grown a lot in the past year because I do my 30 BQs every day, I do Shinwas quest every day, I spend my event points on boosters, I fight all plot opponents as many times as I can for exp, I spend any extra SP I have on boosters or weapon upgrades... I don't spend much on my wardrobe or my treasure chests or anything else. Subeta pretty much IS battling for me. And I actually enjoy battling, trying out strategies, doing BQs... it's not a chore for me. A lot of the battlers (we have a nice assortment of people from all tiers and economy levels on the BC chat) seem to have a similar attitude, which is why they're advancing quickly even when they're not super rich.

That said, it's totally fine to not want to prioritize battling! It's not for everyone. But if you don't want to put in as much time or money, then your pet's going to grow more slowly. However, because we're not making opponents harder than they are now, you will be able to beat them eventually. The only thing you're missing out on are the one-time plot opponents, but that's something we've all gone through as our pets grew. There are a bunch of plot prizes I'd love to have but couldn't get in the past.

Also, Wings, I'm not sure why you'd say you're not expecting any challengers in tier 6. The next monthly opponent is the t6. We also have tiers 12, 3, 8, 4, and 7 left, probably in that order -- so there's a lot coming up for you to fight. We also have more permanent challengers in the pipeline and are carefully filling in gaps in the difficulty levels. We're always doing new stuff for all tiers... so if you don't like how things are now, maybe you will later on.

Edit: Also, I just wanted to point out that I consider the pretty big tooth "cheap" for an old plot prize and a decent weapon. It's not the best weapon in that tier by any means, and nobody NEEDS it. There are more affordable main attacker options that will serve you quite well (many of these are good into higher tiers; some, like Malignant Rift Staff, scale up). Here are some ("free" is in quotation marks if you have to spend CSC to unlock a challenger, or spend plot points):

t6: Broodmother Talon - 7.9 mil (or free if you beat the Lady of the West Wind five times)
Malerias Amulet - 18 mil
Cherry Blossom Scythe - none in usershops because it's brand new, but 1500 tokens in BHH
Shards of Space and Time - 1.8 mil
Reborn Icewand of Doom - about 30 mil to make currently, 20 mil if you wait and buy both pieces from the MC

t7: Twisted Rift Blade - 650k (or "free" in plot prize shop)
Pirate Cutlass - 25 mil
Monthly weapon coming in December

t8: Ice King Clawed Gloves - 3.9 mil (or free if you beat Ice King five times)
Large Gutting Knife - 12 mil (or free if you beat the Pylot five times)
Purple Spider Squeaky Toy - 10.9 mil
Rapier of Error - 5.5 mil (or free if you beat General Error five times)
Sentinel - 20 mil/1k CSC
Monthly weapon coming in October

t9: Bludgeon of Mass Extinction - 25mil (or "free" if you beat Slaughtersaurus five times)
Malignant Rift Staff - 16 mil (or "free" from plot prize shop)

t10: Plague Claw - 7.9 mil (or "free" if you beat Vile Carrier five times)
Another loot drop to be released later this summer

t11: Paintbrush Blades - 50 mil (or "free" if you beat Sophie five times)

I know that these prices still seem high to some people, but this is a huge improvement over the situation before we started as battle admins -- I don't think that any good main attackers in tiers 8 and up were even buyable in usershops.
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Wingsrising » 28 Jun 2013 02:39 am

Cranberry wrote:
Also, Wings, I'm not sure why you'd say you're not expecting any challengers in tier 6. The next monthly opponent is the t6. We also have tiers 12, 3, 8, 4, and 7 left, probably in that order -- so there's a lot coming up for you to fight. We also have more permanent challengers in the pipeline and are carefully filling in gaps in the difficulty levels. We're always doing new stuff for all tiers... so if you don't like how things are now, maybe you will later on.
What I mean is it's not clear to me that there are challengers I couldn't beat a few months ago that I can now. Or even any that I couldn't beat at tier 4 than I can now, really.
AngharadTy wrote: That's another minor issue for me--I spent most of my exp way wrong. No one told me "put it all in HP" when I started, and a lot of it got wasted on str/def instead. So Mezz is really well-rounded, but the Real Battlers on subeta think that's stupid. I'd love to re-spend it all, and we were told way way back that we would get to when the system got reworked, but I'm pretty sure that idea went away ages ago (and I have no idea how it could even remotely be coded--I doubt the system tracks where stat points came from). It just reminds me of my dumb-ness every time I go to spend my exp.
Wait, I wasn't supposed to train strength, defense, or speed? Or I wasn't supposed to put exp in anything but HP? I've actually used all my exp in Level since it's the cheapest per exp point. I just get one every time I need an extra level to train.

EDIT: Aside: Am I the only one to whom it's news that the monthly challengers aren't all for the highest tiers? I'm not sure where I got that impression but this is the first I've heard of it.
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Cranberry » 28 Jun 2013 02:47 am

Most people seem to train stats evenly up until the 3000s or so. Personally, I trained my speed to 3,667 (one point higher than Prodigy) so that he can't critical hit me in Battle Quests and is easier to beat. He gives a lot of exp, so that's a good strategy. I got my str and def up to 3k each before I started pouring all my exp into HP. Visla's stats look like this:

Strength: 3,418
Defense: 3,416
Speed: 3,729
Health: 4,684
Intelligence: 1,688

I find this build works very well. I have been able to beat Prodigy three times in normal battles and can always beat him in BQs. I've gotten 10 wins on all opponents so far this week.

Wings: 12 monthly opponents, 12 tiers, one for every difficulty level. The news post announcing the monthly collection always announces which tier a challenger is meant for (we've gone in random order so far -- 1, 11, 5, 9, 10, 2, with 6, 12, 3, 8, 4, and 7 left to go). Each challenger drops a weapon for its respective tier. And of course you can unlock and fight any opponent you buy; you just may not be able to beat the higher ones yet. :)
Last edited by Cranberry on 28 Jun 2013 02:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Tom » 28 Jun 2013 02:51 am

I just wanted to say that I don't think there's anything wrong with training evenly! I trained evenly up until ~2100s as I wanted to reach tier 11 as quickly as possible... and then just stuck to the routine as it's the most 'cost effective' way of doing things. Some people train evenly beyond that, personal preference I guess. Spending exp on level is definitely recommended. I usually save about 5k exp a day just for that. :)
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Griffin » 28 Jun 2013 05:17 am

Is the Trident really that good? I borrowed one (and a P-Bow and P-Staff) and was still getting my butt kicked in the same manner as before. I was very discouraged by that, as I already sank all my money into bobbleheads, still have to get the last three most expensive ones, and have recuperated little. I should've just saved up and bought the Trident itself. It might be easier to aim for that at this point. -_-

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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Cranberry » 28 Jun 2013 05:35 am

No single weapon is ever going to be all that. Trident blocks all air, so it's not going to be as useful against an opponent that doesn't deal any air, or that only deals a little air and goes heavier on other elements. Trident also won't be as good if the opponent blocks the icons it deals. You really do need a few different main attackers that you can switch around for different opponents. I find that I tend to use four of mine most often (they full-block fire, physical, water, and air), although sometimes cheaper/weaker weapons are actually better against certain opponents. The Paintbrush Blades and Malerias Cursed Arm Bangle (which is overpriced right now but we may just do something about that) can sometimes be better because their defense is more spread out, and I have been known to use Rapier of Error for the nice curse, Hydragellos Maniacal Core for the light block, or Ice King Clawed Gloves for the ice block, among others.
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Re: Achievements and Tales of Woe

Post by Wingsrising » 28 Jun 2013 08:21 pm

AngharadTy wrote:That's another minor issue for me--I spent most of my exp way wrong. No one told me "put it all in HP" when I started, and a lot of it got wasted on str/def instead. So Mezz is really well-rounded, but the Real Battlers on subeta think that's stupid. I'd love to re-spend it all, and we were told way way back that we would get to when the system got reworked, but I'm pretty sure that idea went away ages ago (and I have no idea how it could even remotely be coded--I doubt the system tracks where stat points came from). It just reminds me of my dumb-ness every time I go to spend my exp.
So what is the rationale for this, then? Given that health points are the most expensive, exp-wise, they seem like the last thing that should be trained using exp rather than training.

EDIT: Another silly question: How do I equip potions now? I tried to equip them like weapons but it says I'm not allowed to have more than 8 weapons at a time. Are potions counted as weapons now, or am I missing something?
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