New Feature: Achievements

[Seerow]

I don't see how unfair it is, honestly. Being the richest user onsite is a HELL of an achievement.

Plus, Keith said on the forums that he just expects people will pool their money to get it and that's why it doesn't have a prize. It's just another Achievement for elite users to show off how many rich friends they have.

I think that's my main problem with this achievement. Same with the have X god weapons and so on. The same people are always getting those since they are rich and just pool SP, especially in this case. I'm not knocking them or angry at them or anything of the sort, but when a good portion of the avatars are for the handful of truly elite users it gets dull fast.

Why not take a page out of Neo and have achievements for having a certain pet color or having a minion attached for X amount of days. Or heck, even having a pet that's over X amount of days old. Something that users have to work towards that's not just about having more SP then you know what to do with.

I know there are tons of achievements that don't require you to be a billionaire (and some in fact that require you to be dirt poor!) and this is just one of the them and in the end doesn't really matter too much especially since I'll never be one of the top collectors. But still.

[Wingsrising]

I don't think it's unfair. But I do think it's stupid. First, having tons of avatars only for the "1337" users gets old fast for the rest of us -- which is the vast majority of users. Also, I think achievement that encourage users to engage them in behavior that exposes them to a very high risk of fraud is boneheaded. This achievement provides an fantastic setup for users to rip each other off.

[Rah]

Why not take a page out of Neo and have achievements for having a certain pet color or having a minion attached for X amount of days. Or heck, even having a pet that's over X amount of days old. Something that users have to work towards that's not just about having more SP then you know what to do with.

But people pool those on neopets too! Pet transfers for avatars were happening long before safe transfers were even available. People would just swap pets for achievements.

At the end of the day, it seems to be about two things - do you want to just have the achievements that you can legitimately earn yourselves? Or do you want to have as many achievements as possible, and take advantage of your connections where you can? It's what you're happy with. I'm quite happy milling along getting the achievements that I can get - it's just something that motivates me to play a few more games here and there. I'm not desperate for them - the main focus of my time on subeta remains my pets, and developing their personalites and lookups/treasure chests.

[Ierosbats]

I'd get this if there wasn't any quest achievements - but there are, and those are the ones you've chosen to get. That is the maximum amount of time you have chosen to invest in getting a single achievement. Not everyone is /supposed/ to get all the achievements.

Well, my point wasn't that a week is all I'm willing to spend on getting an Achievement. For example, I'm slooowwwly working my way towards the 5000 Decanter points Achievement and lord knows that's going to take months and months, but it's obtainable. If I play it a few times every day eventually I WILL get to 5000. Compare that to the richest user Achievement where there's no guarantee you'll ever get it no matter how hard you work. I feel like people are viewing it as a "have two billion sP Achievement" and it's not. You need to be THE richest user on the entire site. There's no telling how much that amount will fluctuate. Approximately two billion is just what the amount happens to be NOW.

It's one thing to say you'll play every day and sell off your gallery and quest your ass off and do whatever else to make money but, without help, there's still basically no chance you can become the richest player if you weren't close to that mark to begin with. Who's to say that the richest player will stop earning? In theory, that number will keep growing and growing and growing (because obviously the user in question is pretty good at making money and then not spending it) and the average player was already hundreds of millions of sP behind to start with.

So yes, clearly the Achievement system has been designed so no one player can get every Achievement. I understand that. What I'm saying is that system is not fun. It's one thing to include Achievements that are challenging to get. It's something else entirely to start including ones that are all but impossible for everyone but a handful of players. That kind of feature isn't motivating, it's discouraging. It feels like blatant pandering to the elite.

It's bad enough that half of the achievements are based entirely on luck (lizard minion, taxing, hustler, potion lottery, krypts, ice field, mage tome, oofa fruit, token shop, job promotions, slots, card crusader, decanter, fishing, scratchcards, random, rock paper scissors, the safe, trash collector, the oracle... *cough*), the other half shouldn't be based on having extreme amounts of money.

[Wingsrising]

Why not take a page out of Neo and have achievements for having a certain pet color or having a minion attached for X amount of days. Or heck, even having a pet that's over X amount of days old. Something that users have to work towards that's not just about having more SP then you know what to do with.

But people pool those on neopets too! Pet transfers for avatars were happening long before safe transfers were even available. People would just swap pets for achievements.

And? I thought those were bad ideas, too, and still do.

But still, while I believe many avatars on Neo are stupid, I don't consider any THIS stupid. By definition there can be only one richest user of the site, and thus no more than a few people can ever get this avatar even by pooling resources. Compared to that, finding someone with a Draik willing to loan is fairly straightforward, and was even in the pre-safe-transfer days (which is when I got all my pet avatars, almost all by borrowing).

At the end of the day, it seems to be about two things - do you want to just have the achievements that you can legitimately earn yourselves? Or do you want to have as many achievements as possible, and take advantage of your connections where you can? It's what you're happy with. I'm quite happy milling along getting the achievements that I can get - it's just something that motivates me to play a few more games here and there. I'm not desperate for them - the main focus of my time on subeta remains my pets, and developing their personalites and lookups/treasure chests.

Oh, I don't get ANY achievements that take more than a minimum amount of effort on my part. But that doesn't stop me from thinking that achievements that by DEFINITION no more than a few people can possibly get are stupid.

EDIT: Ah, I thought you were replying to me and not to Seerow for some reason. Oops! But I'll leave the post because I want to make the point about why I find this a bizarre candidate for an achievement...

[AngharadTy]

What it comes down to is my old favorite question, and it's very simple:

Does adding this make the game more fun?

When the answer is "yes, but only for half a dozen people, and no for everyone else," then maybe you shouldn't add it.

[Iggy]

Rah for epic win.

Not all achievements will be easy to get for everyone. This is why they're achievements.
I don't feel like I've achieved anything by doing 5 Amy Quests. Quests have a reward - they all do.

Money can be loaned. And, the richest user always change, I can name you ten users that have been the richest user. It's not impossible.

The 15K posts achievement is more cruel, as posts cannot be gotten, or given.

Why not create Achievements that people have to get themselves based on skill?

There are tons of these. All groups of users have achievements, for all kinds of interest. There are some for stocks, battle, games,forums, quests. We are not expecting people to be interested in all aspects of the site, however, we'd like people to acknowledge these parts of the site exist as well.

I'm aware Keith doesn't have to please me with all of his decisions. He does not. But, I like the fact every group has attention.

[AngharadTy]

Money can be loaned. And, the richest user always change, I can name you ten users that have been the richest user. It's not impossible.

It is for me.

I understand your point about making something for every group--it's interesting, at the very least. But giving the super-rich more ways to be super-cool is divisive, cruel, and elitist. Whether being elitist is something you consider positive is, perhaps, a personal viewpoint. I consider it bad. There are already things the super-rich have that the common user doesn't. Many, many, many things. Deleting an ether already exists and was bad enough. This is much worse.

[Ierosbats]

Not all achievements will be easy to get for everyone. This is why they're achievements.

Money can be loaned. And, the richest user always change, I can name you ten users that have been the richest user. It's not impossible.

That's... not really helping your case. You can name ten users? Out of the how many thousands of players subeta has? That's exactly the point everyone is making here. I don't think anyone's asking for every Achievement to be easy but if, on a site with thousands of users, you can count on your hands the number of people who have the richest user Achievement...

The problem I have is it's one thing to say "the system is designed so you can't get every Achievement" but that only works one way. What it really means is "the system is designed so you can't get every Achievement, unless you're really, really rich". Apart from the pure luck Achievements that everyone has an equal shot of getting, there are very, very few Achievements that can't be gotten simply by throwing some money around. There's a reason that the players with the most Achievements also happen to be the richest players on the site.

There are tons of these. All groups of users have achievements, for all kinds of interest. There are some for stocks, battle, games,forums, quests. We are not expecting people to be interested in all aspects of the site, however, we'd like people to acknowledge these parts of the site exist as well.

To be fair, the stock Achievements were only released a few hours ago, after this whole discussion had started. And as I said earlier, I think the quest Achievements are great and are probably the most appropriate use of the Achievement system. I'll definitely concede that the forum posts Achievements are true accomplishments because I can't even imagine having the patience to deal with that place for thousands of posts. But as I pointed out in my last post, the vast majority of the games Achievements aren't based on skill, they're based on luck.

What I've been suggesting this whole time is releasing Achievements that money can't help you with that also aren't dependent on luck. Being able to score, say, 100 in Dark Matter Dice has nothing to do with how rich you are. Anyone can do it. There's a luck aspect to the game, sure, but... that can't really be avoided on Subeta. The game room is really more of a "game" room. I guess that's maybe where this whole problem is coming from. There isn't really a lot of skill to be tested on the site, other than the ability to make money.

So I get what you're saying, and yes, I can see how it seems like every group has at least some achievements catered to them but it seems like the "really freaking rich" user group is overrepresented. What's the difference between attaching a Malice to your pet than a Crown of the Royals or the Dark Goddess rod? If you can get one you can get them all and if you can't get one you can't get any. It doesn't prove anything.

[Rah]

Ok. But how does not getting the achievement affect you?

I mean...are you jealous that other people can get it and you can't? Do you WANT this achievement?

I feel like subeta is catering to some minority players here...purely because there is very little else for the minority to do. But it's just numbers at the end of the day. I don't see why we just have to release one kind of achievement, and shouldn't release other kinds because it would be unfair to people who have different priorities and goals on subeta.

I understand asking for more achievements - the kinds that you enjoy working for, and like attaining; but I don't understand wanting other removed because you feel only a few people will be able to get them. That just stinks of sour grapes to me. It's not going to affect you or hurt you if 10 other people have one more blue box than you, or 10 more blue boxes than you. At the end of the day, you might be much better than they are at DM dice, or tiles. So suggest more tiers for those if you like.

Unless you don't want them removed at all, and are just ranting. Which is obviously fine.

Edit:

And also...since when was 'coolness' even a factor? I don't find users cool because of how much money they have. And achivements don't contribute to popularity - well, maybe to the n00bs and such. I didn't even know some of the users who have got the richest user achievements. It's not another way for the richest users to become cool or popular, it's just another thing for them to do. Achievements are just personal to me. I don't do them for anyone else but myself.

[Keith]

Whoever said it earlier, I think summed it up the best.

Being the richest user is an achievement.

[AngharadTy]

Ok. But how does not getting the achievement affect you?

I mean...are you jealous that other people can get it and you can't? Do you WANT this achievement?

The point of achievements is that we're all supposed to want them. I'm not sitting here bitching that there are people who are richer than me. That's always the case. Someone has to be on top, someone has to be in the middle, someone has to be on bottom. I'm upset that there's an achievement that I'll never get, can never get. And it'll be visible in my list every time I check it, and I'll know that it was created solely to make the super rich feel even more awesome. So maybe I am jealous that I can't get it, yeah, and is that so bad?

I feel like subeta is catering to some minority players here...purely because there is very little else for the minority to do.

I am not going to feel sorry for the minority of the super-rich. Oh no, I've already bought everything! Whatever shall I do! Gosh, it sure does suck being rich! I feel like Chandler here. "Oh, no! Two women love me. They're both gorgeous and sexy. My wallet's too small for my fifties, and my diamond shoes are too tight!" When your complaint is that you're awesome, I can not have pity for you.

From my point of view, it isn't, "Let's make this achievement so the poor rich people have something to show for it," it's more like, "Let's make this achievement so the huddled masses feel bad about themselves when they see the thing they can never attain. Ha ha! Ha! Ha ha!" Because the rich already have tons of things to show for it. They're RICH.

And also...since when was 'coolness' even a factor? I don't find users cool because of how much money they have. And achivements don't contribute to popularity - well, maybe to the n00bs and such. I didn't even know some of the users who have got the richest user achievements. It's not another way for the richest users to become cool or popular, it's just another thing for them to do.

I know next to nothing about popularity on Subeta. I don't go on the forums much, in large part because I feel like an outsider there. But if I do go, and I see that someone has hundreds and hundreds of achievements, I am impressed. It's impressive to achieve things. That's kind of part of the definition. Someone who's achieved a lot is cool. Michael Phelps is cool. I know almost nothing about him personally, but he won a lot of medals, and that's fucking cool. And he didn't buy them, either.

Being the richest user is an achievement.

And it's an achievement enough on its own without creating this extra box in my achievement list, without creating a rich-users-pool-money fraud potential, without creating elitism on a site that already has enough.

[Keith]

I know next to nothing about popularity on Subeta. I don't go on the forums much, in large part because I feel like an outsider there. But if I do go, and I see that someone has hundreds and hundreds of achievements, I am impressed. It's impressive to achieve things. That's kind of part of the definition. Someone who's achieved a lot is cool. Michael Phelps is cool. I know almost nothing about him personally, but he won a lot of medals, and that's fucking cool. And he didn't buy them, either.

And it's an achievement enough on its own without creating this extra box in my achievement list, without creating a rich-users-pool-money fraud potential, without creating elitism on a site that already has enough.

Why give him medals, when winning the olympics is already enough? :/

I'm just not really seeing the argument. It's one more achievement, that is actually an achievement. (Far more so than completing one wizard quest imo). If you can't achieve it, then... don't.

[Ierosbats]

Ok. But how does not getting the achievement affect you?

I mean...are you jealous that other people can get it and you can't? Do you WANT this achievement?

I feel like subeta is catering to some minority players here...purely because there is very little else for the minority to do.

I'm not sure how many people you're going to win over with the "Oh, the poor rich players! They have it so hard. Whatever will they do?" argument. Call me crazy but I'm of the opinion that if you have hundreds of millions of sP you can do pretty much whatever the hell you want. I'd say they have more things to do than everyone else.

I don't post a hundred times a day on the forums. In fact, I haven't posted there at all since I got my 100th post to get into the Blue Building. I don't spend a lot in the cash shop and I never post in news posts. As a result, I'm not a very visible player, and I'm certainly not one of the "subeta elite". But I spend a lot of time on the site, more than I can explain or probably should. I feel like a loyal player. When Achievements like "be the richest user" are released over things like "be a member for three years" or whatever, I don't feel important. I feel like just because I'm not a "popular" user with a lot of flashy wealth, I'm not an important user. That's how not getting the Achievement affects me.

I agree with everything Ty said. It's super irritating to have to scroll past a bunch of greyed-out boxes every day and know that I'll never blue them in. And yes, I understand they aren't technically impossible, but let's all be honest: the vast majority of us will never, ever get them. Ever. EVER. It's like taking a starving person to a grocery store and making them look but not letting them touch. "Oh, look. I bet you'd like that, hey? Yeah, it's right there! Niiiiice. BUT NOT FOR YOU."

I'm also not buying that creating a richest user achievement gives those members something else to do for longer than a few minutes, if that's really the goal. Have lots of money, click, be acknowledged for having lots of money. Hours of fun!

If you're having trouble keeping the wealthy users entertained, maybe the solution should be to add new features, not tiny additions to an existing feature. Why not create pet spotlights, or user lookup spotlights? Something that will require at least few days' work. That gives all players, rich or otherwise, something to do. You don't have to spend a lot of money to create a great story for your pets and fill their treasures with interesting things, but obviously you could. It's open to everyone and requires more of a commitment than simply looking at your big pile of money and clicking. Why not add features like those and create achievements for them? I'd much rather be motivated to get creative than just get ridiculously rich.

[AngharadTy]

Why give him medals, when winning the olympics is already enough? :/

That's a flawed analogy. We don't all have empty Olympic medal cases at home that we can stare at every day and know we'll never fill them up. You put this achievement into a pre-existing system of increasing numbers under your username that just so happens to be called "achievements." You could have called it "banana points" and we'd still have gone for them.

I'm just not really seeing the argument.

This does not negate the argument.