Dragon Name Change and Capital Lettered Pet Names Thread

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Iggy
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Re: Dragon Name Change and Capital Lettered Pet Names Thread

Post by Iggy »

I don't think you quite get what is bawwing.

Complaining isn't bawwing. Bawwing is to expect the site to totally suit your needs and desires. Always. All the time. If I were nasty, and willing to lose my job at Subeta, I'd give you names and examples.

Think of bawwing being a little seven-year old throwing a tantrum. Except, it's not a seven-year old, it's actually a twenty-five year old.

You may not like the term, but I dislike this selfish attitude, and the fact more and more people thinks it will get things to move. It won't.

Someone told me once there is a reason there is no I in the word 'Subeta'. ;) A lot more people think banging their fists in anger will force the site to move back to 64X64 avatars, pre-revamps and such. This is bawwing.
Luxe
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Re: Dragon Name Change and Capital Lettered Pet Names Thread

Post by Luxe »

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just edit the news post, capitalize the names of the pets, and let it go?
And send the message that staff will basically undo anything if a few hundred people complain, with or without a poll? That implies that we basically can never act on our own judgment or initiative ever again. It makes us look wishy-washy, like we lack confidence in our abilities, and perhaps even sets us up to be further abused and bullied later. Would it be easier in the short term? Absolutely. Long term? That's not a path any of us wants to go down.

The decision is being explained and defended because we have opinions too and feel they are worth stating. A few hundred people put forth their opinions, and as Keith has stated numerous times, we are allowed to do the same. I believe it's also been mentioned that the "behind the scenes" information, i.e., he hows and whys of our decision making, is something users appreciate about Subeta. We are reading the feedback and taking it in. That doesn't mean we instantly give up our say on it, though. There's a significant difference between listening and and agreeing/reacting.
Wingsrising
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Re: Dragon Name Change and Capital Lettered Pet Names Thread

Post by Wingsrising »

Luxe wrote:
Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just edit the news post, capitalize the names of the pets, and let it go?
And send the message that staff will basically undo anything if a few hundred people complain, with or without a poll? That implies that we basically can never act on our own judgment or initiative ever again. It makes us look wishy-washy, like we lack confidence in our abilities, and perhaps even sets us up to be further abused and bullied later. Would it be easier in the short term? Absolutely. Long term? That's not a path any of us wants to go down.
The path of responding to user complaints isn't a path that Subeta wants to go down? Er.... yeah. Good luck with that.

Iggy, my point wasn't that I didn't think there were users who were being unreasonable and annoying and rude. Of course there are users who are being unreasonable and annoying and rude. My point was that insulting users in public is not on even when they're being unreasonable, annoying, and rude.

What this all boils down to is that users have money. Subeta would like the users to give Subeta some of their money. If you want people to give you money, you generally have to be nice to them, regardless of whether they're being nice back.
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mellaka
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Re: Dragon Name Change and Capital Lettered Pet Names Thread

Post by mellaka »

I'm late to this thread, but I have to wonder if there would have been such a strong reaction if the non-caps and disliked name weren't put out there at the same time. Honestly, when I read it, I thought it was odd that one species' name would be in lowercase and didn't realize it was a site-wide thing until I read the topic here. I disliked the name, but didn't care enough about it to read the comments on-site.

As someone who feels that capitalization is so overused and misused today, I don't mind the switch to lowercase for pet colors/species. (I'm a writer/editor and I can't tell you how many times I have to correct stuff like "Our Company has some News to share about a Milestone we achieved.") I do have to admit that I know nothing about proper capitalization of animals' names since animals are not covered in my company's magazines.

But the non-capitalization even jumped out at me, though I try to tune out my inner-editor when I read/write stuff online. So that just makes me think that the odd-looking word rreign maybe wasn't the best way to kick off the change. Or that maybe introducing a new name was reason enough for it to be capitalized once, even if it wouldn't be capped in common places throughout the site afterwards.

But, I guess I'm over it. It's not going to change my opinion of the site.
Hawk
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Re: Dragon Name Change and Capital Lettered Pet Names Thread

Post by Hawk »

Well, speaking as maybe one of the only people here who owns a Rreign, I am somewhat pissed. The capitalization thing is fine with me, but I had to check my pet's profile to make sure that the name change wasn't a typo after I read the news. I honestly like the name less than Dragon. Not because it's necessarily a bad name, but because I can't really read it or sound it out in my head. It's just not a word that makes sense to me. I keep reading it as sounding almost like "ray-gun". Maybe I'm slightly dyslexic.
Sianach
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Re: Dragon Name Change and Capital Lettered Pet Names Thread

Post by Sianach »

Luxe wrote:
Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just edit the news post, capitalize the names of the pets, and let it go?
And send the message that staff will basically undo anything if a few hundred people complain, with or without a poll? That implies that we basically can never act on our own judgment or initiative ever again. It makes us look wishy-washy, like we lack confidence in our abilities, and perhaps even sets us up to be further abused and bullied later. Would it be easier in the short term? Absolutely. Long term? That's not a path any of us wants to go down.
Wait, what? Do you see how you sound there (in the bold)? You are acting as if reversing a decision now will affect every single action you take in the future. Which is, to put it mildly, kind of silly. Way to look at things with that half empty mind set. Listening to the people and taking action after the fact is not weak, and will not lead you to be bullied. People are going to complain over future decisions whether or not you take action here, so it really doesn't matter.

But, seriously. The thing about this that is annoying me the most is the fact that the protesters are giving valid, well thought out opinions. Where as most of the defenders are all 'lol, it's fine, shut up'. Yeah, way to be mature people! And, by the way, this was direct more at the people on Subeta, and not the people who comment here. I enjoy coming here and reading thoughts, because they tend to be more mature about it. Way to go, fellas!
Slugawoo
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Re: Dragon Name Change and Capital Lettered Pet Names Thread

Post by Slugawoo »

Luxe wrote:
Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just edit the news post, capitalize the names of the pets, and let it go?
And send the message that staff will basically undo anything if a few hundred people complain, with or without a poll? That implies that we basically can never act on our own judgment or initiative ever again. It makes us look wishy-washy, like we lack confidence in our abilities, and perhaps even sets us up to be further abused and bullied later. Would it be easier in the short term? Absolutely. Long term? That's not a path any of us wants to go down.
Wait... so you'd rather have a "what I say, goes" reputation than a "we listen to our users" reputation?

That's a pretty interesting thing to say when the users have money that the site needs.
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Joey
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Re: Dragon Name Change and Capital Lettered Pet Names Thread

Post by Joey »

Luxe wrote:
Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just edit the news post, capitalize the names of the pets, and let it go?
And send the message that staff will basically undo anything if a few hundred people complain, with or without a poll? That implies that we basically can never act on our own judgment or initiative ever again. It makes us look wishy-washy, like we lack confidence in our abilities, and perhaps even sets us up to be further abused and bullied later. Would it be easier in the short term? Absolutely. Long term? That's not a path any of us wants to go down.
Being able to admit you were wrong and then fix the problem is a sign of strength, not being wishy-washy, despite what politics wants you to think.
Jessyta
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Re: Dragon Name Change and Capital Lettered Pet Names Thread

Post by Jessyta »

Jessibean wrote:Here's what I don't get. Why, if it IS causing so much hullabaloo, are you just arguing with people in public about it? Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just edit the news post, capitalize the names of the pets, and let it go?
Wouldn't it be easier for players to stop arguing, shut up and respect that staff are in their positions for a reason and let it be?
Slugawoo wrote:Wait... so you'd rather have a "what I say, goes" reputation than a "we listen to our users" reputation?
If that were the case staff never would have polled users about the removal of the double blocking.

Besides, jessibean wasn't asking staff to poll users about the changes. She was asking staff to just edit the post and undo what they had done. She wasn't asking for staff to see what the user base as a whole preferred, she was asking staff to do what a small group of very vocal users preferred.

If Andi/staff were to do what jessibean asked, that may give the Neocolours crew a warm and fuzzy feeling about staff, it may make some of you feel like staff actually listens... But really it would be favoritism. Which is kind of ironic, a considering the part of jessibean's post I am not going to touch on so Joey/other staff don't jump all over my ass about drama. :P
Jessi
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Re: Dragon Name Change and Capital Lettered Pet Names Thread

Post by Jessi »

Actually, jessyta, I did mention previously several times (in the comments, not on NC, but several times) that perhaps a poll would have been a good idea.

Also, I'm not asking staff to change it based on Neocolours' decision. I'm sure you noticed, since you've been hanging out in the comments giving delightful responses to everyone, but it's hardly a handful of people from Neocolours talking about this change. HARDLY. There were four of us I can think of off the top of my head - Seerow, Wings, Bon and myself - that commented about it on Subeta itself. Everyone else who has complained about it are not Neocolours users. So I would hardly say I brought that up to make Neocolours feel warm and fuzzy, or that it would hardly be favoritism for Neocolours only. I think even staff can agree that's pretty obvious.

Also, I do think it's rather funny that you posted recently to say you were not coming back to Neocolours because of people 'jumping on your ass about drama' - why exactly are you coming now to try and start more?
Luxe
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Re: Dragon Name Change and Capital Lettered Pet Names Thread

Post by Luxe »

And we have admitted it before and turned around with the proper procedures. The double blocking was a perfect example. An issue affected members' experience on site, opinions emerged in comments and forum threads, we acknowledged a problem, we opened a poll. Based on that result, we reverted a decision. Honestly, the only time this "Users give your site money; you need to listen!" point comes up is when we try to stick to our guns on an issue. How quickly the compromises and reversed decisions we have made in the past are forgotten or taken for granted. We've reversed item and NPC revamps, created an entirely new species to compromise for an unpopular revamp, reversed the way the blocking system works (with a <60% vote), and polled, repolled and sometimes repolled again to get a revamp just right!

If we just change the case in the news post to avoid confrontation, what other small things will users try to get us to change without a poll? Are we then expected to poll species names, new or changed? Their designs? Special color revamps? Rule changes or modifications? Any decision with the potential to be disliked would consequently have the potential to be backpedaled. It's not silly to think of the long term when it's quite likely that somewhere down the road someone will say, "You went back on ________ without a poll because of the uproar. How is this different?" Members aren't going to differentiate this decision and another decision if the common factor in both is the temperature of the feedback.

Like I said before, we are open to discussing it further within staff. We don't need to showcase which points caught our attention or even make a promise that anything will change. We're reading, listening and considering. If we didn't want to hear any of it, comments would be closed on that news post.
Last edited by Luxe on 14 Nov 2008 08:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Keith
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Re: Dragon Name Change and Capital Lettered Pet Names Thread

Post by Keith »

What it boils down too, is you are not the only users. If you have an opinion as a hive-mind, that's fine. However, you do not represent the whole of Subeta, and I think our jobs are to understand the whole of Subeta. I pride myself on thinking we know them a lot better than you do ;)

Regardless, flaunting that you have money, and that if we don't do what you want, you won't spend it in the cash shop is silly. Do you have power over your grocery store because you've bought a gallon of milk? Do you control comcast because you pay monthly for the internet service? No.

You receive either the goods or services that you've purchased. If you aren't happy with your purchase, you can put off purchasing from that establishment again in the future.

Also, I'll just think back to the time when (most) of you said that Human Avatars were the worst idea ever, and would ruin Subeta when I brought the idea here first ;) Excuse me for not taking your advise on what the whole of Subeta would enjoy/like.
Jessyta
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Re: Dragon Name Change and Capital Lettered Pet Names Thread

Post by Jessyta »

Jessibean wrote:Actually, jessyta, I did mention previously several times (in the comments, not on NC, but several times) that perhaps a poll would have been a good idea.
Not in the post that was quoted. Which was what myself and others were replying to.
Jessibean wrote:Also, I do think it's rather funny that you posted recently to say you were not coming back to Neocolours because of people 'jumping on your ass about drama' - why exactly are you coming now to try and start more?
I am here now for the same reason I was here last. People on this site like to talk about me, be it by name or not. And if you are going to say things that are about me, I am going to come take a peek and I will probably reply too.
Jessi
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Re: Dragon Name Change and Capital Lettered Pet Names Thread

Post by Jessi »

You know, I don't think a SINGLE person on Neocolours ever said nor implied that we were the only users. We never said we represent the whole of Subeta. Long before Subeta staff started visiting this website, it was a place for discussing what we liked and disliked about Neopets - and a lot of us started playing Subeta. So it turned into a website discussing what we like and dislike about Subeta, as well.

Will we continue to discuss that here? Yes. But none of us once said that Neocolours was the place to go if you wanted Staff to listen to you. If staff chooses to come here and interact in our discussion, hey, that's great. That doesn't mean we have to change our minds to suit the opinions of staff. Does staff have to change their minds to suit the opinions of Neocolours? Certainly not.

I do think, however, that it's silly to turn this into a Neocolours-vs-Subeta staff (and ex-staff) gang bang, which is essentially what's happening here. Subeta is YOUR site. You have the right to regulate what you want people to say, how you want people to say it. You have the right to do what you want, regardless of whether or not people are going to like it. It's not always the best way to go, but hey, it's your site. You can do that.

Neocolours is our site. Yes, you, as a member of Neocolours, are part of that site, and are welcome to talk here. But I think the problem is staff has always come here never as a general member of a forum, but as a representative of Subeta staff. That's fine, but you're still representing your business, and should do so professionally. Otherwise, STOP representing Subeta and try talking to us from your own personal standpoint. If you don't like the opinions stated on Neocolours, then express your own - but please do not pull the Subeta staff card out on us.

And Keith, I'm pretty sure none of us said avatars were going to be the worst thing ever in a million years and cause a fiery death of all of Subeta. What we did say, however, is it was pulling Subeta further away from the pets - and it has. Also, there have been a few times where YOU have come here asking us for ideas. If you don't want an off-site place like Neocolours to have a part in giving Subeta ideas, don't willingly as us for them.

As a final note, I was watching Pokemon today (...yeah, yeah) and I think that's what's bothering me about the capital name thing, heh. I guess pets on a pet site seem more like Pokemon than like, animals. And Pokemon names are always capitalized in offical Pokemon stuff. It has the same connotation in my head, at least, so I guess that's why I prefer a capital letter. Again - that's just my personal opinion. I am not expressing the opinion of Neocolours or telling staff this is a perfectly good reason why they should change it. I'm just saying that I think I've narrowed down my personal reasons for disliking the change.
Jazzy
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Re: Dragon Name Change and Capital Lettered Pet Names Thread

Post by Jazzy »

Jessyta wrote:
Jessibean wrote:Here's what I don't get. Why, if it IS causing so much hullabaloo, are you just arguing with people in public about it? Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just edit the news post, capitalize the names of the pets, and let it go?
Wouldn't it be easier for players to stop arguing, shut up and respect that staff are in their positions for a reason and let it be?
Don't tell my forum members to shut up. Heaven forbid people express their opinions on a website created for that purpose.

And Keith, I'm going to guess you know exactly how offensive the term "hive-mind" is, and would thank you not to use it again.
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