Dragon Name Change and Capital Lettered Pet Names Thread

[Luxe]

Otherwise, STOP representing Subeta and try talking to us from your own personal standpoint.

Please don't, Jessibean. Don't insinuate that this is what we need to do when from day one I have been trying to enforce that this is not Subeta, and I am not bound by professionalism here, and what I speak is from my personal point of view. Every single time I do so, I get met with "but you are staff, so you are inadvertently a representative of Subeta staff. What you say reflects on your co-workers, etc." Damned if I do and damned if I don't. I disagree with the opinions stated on Neocolours, and I'm met with posts from people threatening not to spend money on Subeta again after the lack of professionalism of their staff members... off-site!!

What if my personal viewpoint is in alignment with staff's decision? What about what Sophie's had to say about this? Is that just a product of mob behavior and does that make it any less personal? Should I only post here if I disagree with a decision staff has made, so that I can publicly display there is internal disharmony? What would that accomplish except to divide staff in the eyes of members so they can say, "See! Luxe knows what I'm talking about. Why doesn't staff listen to her?"

I think the solution is, as has been stated several times, to let you all have your home and withdraw from posting here. It's clear we can't be NC members and Subeta staff at the same time.

[Jessyta]

Here's what I don't get. Why, if it IS causing so much hullabaloo, are you just arguing with people in public about it? Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just edit the news post, capitalize the names of the pets, and let it go?

Wouldn't it be easier for players to stop arguing, shut up and respect that staff are in their positions for a reason and let it be?

Don't tell my forum members to shut up. Heaven forbid people express their opinions on a website created for that purpose.

Try reading more carefully.

I didn't tell anyone to shut up. Posing a question =/= telling someone to do something.

Heaven forbid I point out that jessibean's logic can go either way.

[Keith]

And Keith, I'm going to guess you know exactly how offensive the term "hive-mind" is, and would thank you not to use it again.

I'm not sure how it's more offensive than I meant it to be. It's obvious that you all (or most of you) agree on this point, which would be what a hive-mind is. You all (mostly) have the same opinions, on the same thing (when it is related to Subeta, in the least).

[Joey]

I'm just gonna say that no one here is suggesting you cater to our whims. That's why we keep suggesting that you make a poll on subeta, not on here. And hey, if you're right and people do like your decisions better, then the polls will reflect that. Then while we could still feel like a decision is stupid, it'll at least be what people wanted. I don't see why it's so hard to reach out a hand and say, "hey, what do you guys think of this?" instead of letting dramafest after dramafest break out. I'd be much easier on both sides I'd think.

[AngharadTy]

Jessyta, I interpreted your post to mean that you wanted us to shut up. Jazzy was in the right, and insulting the admin of our entire site ("try reading more carefully" is an insult, especially on a forum based on text) is not the way to go.

Keith, a hive mind does not mean "we all agree." A hive mind is an over-consciousness that stifles individuality. It has very negative connotations.

However, everybody in this thread needs to take a step back and stop taking things personally. The last few pages have been nothing but negativity, and that doesn't serve anyone well. Neocolours is not meant to be the place to argue with Subeta staff.

[Jazzy]

Phrasing something with "wouldn't it be easier" means that you feel that that would be a better option, so you'd prefer it if people here shut up. Don't try and tell me that it's a genuine question.

And Keith, hive-mind doesn't just mean people agree - it means they agree unquestioningly, no matter what the issue, and are blind to any views other than the collective one, from which there can be no deviation whatsoever. People agree because they've come to the same conclusions, not because they're mindless drones. You wouldn't like it if people accused the Subeta staff of acting in that way. And if you're going to question my use of the word "drones", the whole point of drones (as insects, in the original usage of the word) is that they're expendable hive workers with absolutely no independence, acting entirely under one person's orders. There's a reason why hive-related language is entirely pejorative.

[Sarivonne]

I love coming to neocolours to talk about subeta because I feel like I don't need to be restricted on what my opinion is. If I go to subeta, I'll often get a ton of users jumping down my throat and pretty much damning me for not immediately agreeing with everything the staff does. I never disagree on everything, some things I appreciate, some things I don't. So where can I talk about it? Certainly not forums dedicated to subeta, but neocolours is good for discussing many petsites. I like to voice my opinion on art, site issues, etc here, because I wont be outcasted and burned on a stake for saying I don't like something.

Considering we have minimods here comparing the complaints to 'BAWing' is a little obnoxious and probably in bad taste. I know they 'changed' their definition on what they think bawing is, but that's the thing, whenever things start to take a turn, it feels like staff tries to defend themselves once again. This issue has been brought up many, many times.

For instance, when you show a new pet and users have no idea what it is, then the artist says 'it's a mix between a rhino and a crab' and you don't SEE anatomy from either, the artist tends to quickly pipe up with 'I said INSPIRED. It doesn't mean I have to use their anatomy exactly because it's a ~subeta pet~' Same thing with this name change, when pointed out about the welsh issue, it was quickly defended that it was simply inspired and not meant to be exactly the same. But as someone noted, you could have easily said Llama was your inspiration.

On the issue of a 'few hundred people being upset'. I'm sure a lot of people skim over and don't read the news. I'm sure there's HUNDREDS who don't want to speak on the issue for fear of being lynched or being told 'lol it's fine it doesnt bother me'

If you've noticed, most users that comment don't care either way if something is capitalized or not. I have not seen a huge group of people saying 'OH MY GOD I'VE WAITED FOR YEARS FOR SUBETA TO LOWER CASE NAMES. I'M SO HAPPY OMG'. I'm pretty sure if you change it back to uppercase, you're not going to get hundreds of users crying about it.

I can understand why the hive mind is considered offensive. Ever since the 4chan debacle people KNOW a lot of the terminology. And from the way you claim people sharing an opinion as a 'hive mind' makes it seem like you're comparing them/us to 4channers, which can be perceived as an insult. Many people don't care for 4chan and may be insulted by this. You waged a war against 4chan so subeta users consider them an enemy. You're alluding that people who have a complaint are as bad as 4chan. At least this is how I can see it being offensive. You may want to choose your words carefully. Anything can EASILY be misinterpreted and considering that you guys are representing staff, you need to be careful.

I highly doubt this whole issue will cause the downfall of subeta, because there's too many people who play without reading news and forums. Some play just for the shiny human avatars. But the people who take time to show concern should also be listened to besides people just saying 'lol cool'.


Edit: I'd like to note everything here is strictly my opinion and I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone. I am pointing out how something looks in my eyes.

[Jessyta]

AngharadTy, you interpreted it wrong then.

Phrasing something with "wouldn't it be easier" means that you feel that that would be a better option, so you'd prefer it if people here shut up. Don't try and tell me that it's a genuine question.

I worded it that way because that is how jessibean worded her post, which I was replying to.

Did you really fail to see that I worded my post the way I did specifically because of the wording used in the post I was replying to?

Look, if I wanted to tell someone here that I think they need to shut the fuck up, I will. I didn't. So really, no need for you to act like I did.

[Cranberry]

I believe it's also been mentioned that the "behind the scenes" information, i.e., he hows and whys of our decision making, is something users appreciate about Subeta.

We do appreciate that, very much. Does that mean you'll answer my question (from a few pages back) about why you decided to stop capitalizing species names all of a sudden and why you're so adamant about keeping them this way? Like I said, it seems like a really weird thing to fight over. I didn't see anyone complaining when names were capitalized. Now that they're not, I see a lot of people complaining (and not just NCers, not by a long shot). It seems like you're refusing to change it back out of pride, because you feel like rethinking this tiny issue will make you look like doormats. And as far as I've seen, it's usually the opposite that happens -- people respect you guys so much more when you say, "Well, maybe that wasn't the best idea; we'll poll it/change it back based on user feedback/whatever."

Regardless, flaunting that you have money, and that if we don't do what you want, you won't spend it in the cash shop is silly. Do you have power over your grocery store because you've bought a gallon of milk? Do you control comcast because you pay monthly for the internet service? No.

How timely! I literally just got back from a customer service seminar at work (I work in a bakery, inside a grocery store). In that seminar, I learned that the customer is ALWAYS right, even if they're the biggest fucking bitch on the planet. One angry customer is not just one angry customer -- that one person tells, on average, ten others about how much we suck. So yes, someone who's unhappy with their gallon of milk does have a lot of power over us -- we have to make them happy, whether it means giving them another company's milk for the price of their unsatisfactory milk, giving them replacement milk for free, giving them a gift card, whatever. And maybe it's the same here. A few people have said on this thread that they will no longer give you money. How many others are lurking and thinking the same thing?

I don't think you quite get what is bawwing.

Complaining isn't bawwing. Bawwing is to expect the site to totally suit your needs and desires. Always. All the time. If I were nasty, and willing to lose my job at Subeta, I'd give you names and examples.

Think of bawwing being a little seven-year old throwing a tantrum. Except, it's not a seven-year old, it's actually a twenty-five year old.

No one here is bawwing. No one expects the site to totally suit our needs and desires. In fact, this situation, like almost all others that turn into big fucking deals, started out as a few people harmlessly venting, like we sometimes do here. You should know that, considering you were a NCer long before you were a Subeta minimod. As someone who's part of our community, who argued against many Subeta decisions in the past (and actually threatened to quit playing Subeta forever when those high-profile firings went down) and who has seen how articulate and calm NCers are in a debate, one would think you'd be less likely to jump in and compare us to the users who merit flame threads on SD.

[Luxe]

Does that mean you'll answer my question (from a few pages back) about why you decided to stop capitalizing species names all of a sudden and why you're so adamant about keeping them this way? Like I said, it seems like a really weird thing to fight over. I didn't see anyone complaining when names were capitalized. Now that they're not, I see a lot of people complaining (and not just NCers, not by a long shot). It seems like you're refusing to change it back out of pride, because you feel like rethinking this tiny issue will make you look like doormats. And as far as I've seen, it's usually the opposite that happens -- people respect you guys so much more when you say, "Well, maybe that wasn't the best idea; we'll poll it/change it back based on user feedback/whatever."

Sorry, I must have missed it. Certainly.

With the release of the Subetapedia drawing closer, and even a bit of lore behind an upcoming holiday, it came to our attention that the more casual mention of species and colors on site looked better lowercase. An entire article with species and color capitalized looked very awkward. There is also an upcoming NPC whose name is in the format of Adjective Species, and more than anything else, that in particular got the gears turning. What way was there to distinguish Adjective Species from other Adjective Species(es)? Why was that a proper noun?

We could have waited til the release of said event, but we didn't want the species name and case to be tied specifically to an event that is going to repeat annually. The two really aren't related.

And I realize this seems to have some holes in it, but I'll be damned if there aren't at least a few surprises left when this comes around. I'm not exaggerating when I say that I, personally was so excited about this holiday, the customs, the lore, etc., before yesterday and now? Personally, I just feel like getting it over with so we can put our noses to the grindstone and move on to December and the inevitable mockery/criticism as we try to write more lore, customs, and mold a new holiday. But I know that's wrong and I should still be proud of the work we've done this month, regardless. This is just a speedbump and I don't know for sure if this month's event is going to be ripped to shreds or not.

[Cranberry]

Thank you for the explanation. I, for one, really appreciate it, as it makes it clear that you didn't decide to change the capitalization on a whim. I still don't like the way it looks (and if I were part of the project, I'd probably continue to use capitalization in news posts announcing new colors/species name changes, but the new rules in the story/Subetapedia), but at least I understand it.

[covet]

I think, as so often lately, it's really moved beyond the initial issue (which was fairly minor) and into a debate about attitudes to the response to the initial issue. I tend to think flames are fanned less by someone saying 'I'm sorry you don't like the idea, I personally think it's really cool' than by 'We think the idea is cool, you're ridiculous for complaining and I don't get why you care anyway'.

We're all intelligent, articulate and opinionated. While that does mean we'll often agree when something is dumb, it by no means reflects a hive mentality. Some of us honestly couldn't be more different

Luxe - I really doubt anyone set out to rip anyone else's ideas to shreds. All I saw were people voicing their opinions. I know things like the new holidays etc probably feel like they're your baby and you don't want them attacked. At the same time, the site is something we all invest our time and occasionally money in, and it's not fair to attack, ridicule or guilt trip us on the occasions when our opinions differ from yours. We don't expect to have things changed for us, but if you're going to post here it would be nice to feel that you're at least taking opinions into consideration. If you can't, then it might be better to take a step back from sensitive topics.

[Sarivonne]

I agree on the definitions given for the term 'Hive mind'. It's not a very endearing term.

[Luxe]

You're welcome, Cranberry. I'm glad I could do that for you.

it's not fair to attack, ridicule or guilt trip us on the occasions when our opinions differ from yours.

Of which I've done no such thing. Time and time again I have stated you are more than welcome to have your opinions in this forum and even on site. I don't have a problem with people who are vocal about their opinions. Have you met me?! XD I have a real problem with coming here and being expected to behave as though the opinions didn't affect me. I have a problem with being asked, "Why won't you do ________, then?" as if I were obligated to do so. I resent people threatening to leave Subeta or withdrawing spending their money because when I decide to voice that I have a problem with the aforementioned things and/or decide to disagree with the opinions of this community, it is inappropriate.

if you're going to post here it would be nice to feel that you're at least taking opinions into consideration. If you can't, then it might be better to take a step back from sensitive topics.

I'm stepping away, but not because I can't give the impression that I'm taking opinions into consideration, which again, I have done. It's because of conflicting messages. "You represent staff!" "Stop pulling the staff card here, this isn't Subeta."

Frankly, neither I, nor other members of my team, can handle it and it's clear that this community was designed to voice opinions without staff responses. If you wanted our attention, you would post on Subeta, as some of you have done. I will see you there!

[Jazzy]

Jessyta: I know exactly why you repeated what Jessi said - hell, I even know what the linguistic term for doing that is.

However. If you say something, the defence of "I was only copying $person, I didn't actually say it" doesn't work. You did say it.