Signature thread about gun control and gun violence

Non-neopets general discussion.

What should my new sig say?

Molon labe, bitch.
3
9%
Pwushie killer. In more ways than one.
2
6%
In Soviet Russia, pwushie gets you!
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24%
Reply to this post or the pwushie gets you.
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3%
Cute. Cuddly. Deadly.
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15%
Walk softly and carry a killer pwushie.
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No votes
My name is Pwushie. You killed my tiger. Prepare to die.
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36%
Are these things edible? No?! Then why'd you give them to me?!?
2
6%
Reply to this post or Commander Pwushie will find out it was your fault that Mr. Tiger died.
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No votes
He wasn't called Two-Gun Pwushie because he carried two guns...
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No votes
 
Total votes: 33

Figment
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Post by Figment »

There you go again, trying to draw comparisons between situations so completely different that there is no way of drawing even parallels. I know quite a bit about the Rwandan genocide, and about the Armenian genocide, and about the Holocaust -- but none of them are remotely similar to the situation in America. The problem with bringing genocide into a discussion on violence and gun control is that the driving force behind genocide, if there is one, is so remotely removed from the reasons for homocide in an industrialized nation that it's completely laughable. The Hutus killed the Tutsis with garden hoes and machetes because the cultural hatred instilled in them by the dutch colonists was so strong that they would use anything to exterminate the perceived "other." It has absolutely no bearing on whether or not they had guns, or should have had guns, or whether or not we should have guns.
syldssuf
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Post by syldssuf »

Syldssuf, you might get a better reception if you stopped being haughty and condescending. "Ever hear of Rwanda?" Please. That is just offensive because it assumes our ignorance. You could also consider stopping your pained sighing, because it's not winning you any points.

Granted, I don't expect this discussion to yield any honestly good results, but the only chance you have of that is if you're more polite.
It would help if everyone would stop accusing me of intellectual dishonesty while simultaneously doing exactly what they're accusing me of. It would also help if people would actually listen. They aren't. Do you see any sign of listening? No, they just twist my words into things I didn't say, then provide counter-points which are just as intellectually dishonest as what they're accusing me of.

It's extremely frustrating. I feel like a black guy at a Klan rally, here.

"You can't compare gun control to homosexuality! Now listen while I compare gun control to pedophilia! No, you can't compare gun control to pedophilia, only me! Now I will compare it to fast food! Hey, no Rwanda! Killing is not the same as killing! First I say killing is cultural, so someone else can cultural killing in Rwanda isn't the same as cultural killing in America, when you reply to that!"
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jade_stone_dragon
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Post by jade_stone_dragon »

I'm Australian and our Gun laws are different to both England and the US.

I neither own a gun nor do I want one, for one simple reason: I don't like them. Now this does not mean I want them banned or destroyed after all, I don't like Soup either but I don't want it banned either.

I like our Gun control laws, it makes if slightly harder to obtain a gun but does not make it posible.
21 Soon, buy me stuff
syldssuf
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Post by syldssuf »

(to the suicide person [I've had a hard time keeping track of everyone. Black man at a Klan rally, here])

I should mention, suicide with a gun is not as quick and easy as everyone thinks it is. I actually do have a friend that's attempted suicide with a gun before (but is still alive), now that I think of it. Pulling the trigger is not easy. Actually, the "easy" deaths tend to be with painkillers or sleeping pills.

It's pretty common to find "hesitation marks" (i.e. bullet holes) high up on the walls of the house of someone who's on the verge of suicide, who owns a gun. They flinch at the last moment. Pulling the trigger has enough of a finality to cause hesitation. Wheras slow bleeding to death or overdoses are much slower, and much easier to do. Especially pills. Most people take pills every day.

Given that razor blades and pills factor into suicides, should those be banned? No, because they have legitimate use. Like it or not, so do guns.
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Figment
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Post by Figment »

The difference is that it is much easier to find and save someone who has ODed on pills or tried to cut their wrists than someone who has shot him or herself. Of course it varies depending on the drugs ingested, and I only have knowledge about overdoses of psychotropic drugs, but it takes hours for a person to die from an overdose, and, contrary to popular belief, it is actually very difficult to kill oneself with razor blades. How long does it take a person who has shot him or herself to die? What are the chances of them being saved after they have fired at their body? I do not know the answers to those questions, but I do know that men die more frequently from suicide but women attempt it more often -- because 80% of men use firearms, while most women use pills and other "gentler" methods.

I would explain to you the differences between genocide and homocide and the offensiveness of comparing the Rwanda-Burundi genocide to deaths by firearms in the US, but I honestly do not think you would understand, especially as you have already briefly touched on several of the points I would make.

I'm officially withdrawing myself from this "discussion" before I stoop to joining you in personal attacks, Syldssuf.
Usul_Princess
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Post by Usul_Princess »

....What happened here?! o_O I've been watching this post carefully for about 4 days now, happily awaiting various opinions on this sig. and I came back from work today, and now there's 6+ pages.

I didn't take the time to read *all* the pages, but I do see the conflict here. Unfortunately I'm so neutral about everything, that I usually end up pissing off both sides. I guess to add in my two cents is that frankly, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no matter how profoundly off base it may be. I'd be lying if I said I truly respected the opinions of radicals, but I don't really see much of a serious problem here. I see logic in *everyone's* post. I can't take anyone's side, because I agree and disagree with a little bit of everything. Wherever this conversation went south, I think people are losing sight of the fact that it originally started out as an art critique.

Anyways, carry on I guess. I just thought I'd shed some light on the situation.
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Thank you TCStarwind for the lovely signature! ^_^

FC bets: http://www.neopets.com/~DazedBoy
Silverevilchao
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Post by Silverevilchao »

Alright, I may be posting late, but...

Owning a gun is different than using one. Just because you HAVE a gun doesn't mean you'll ever have the chance to use it.

Saying that guns kill people is ridiculous, because they don't. It's the person that fires them. A gun doesn't fire itself, ya know. Unless its possessed.

Also, saying that guns are bad is like saying cars are bad. Thousands of people die every year in vehicular accidents, mostly because of driver error, which includes driving while half asleep or drunk (it has been proven that a half-asleep driver is just as dangerous as a drunk one). So, we have to ban cars because they kill so many people? Car accidents kill more people than gunshots, folks.

Also, OTHER things can be used as weapons, too. A college girl was strangled to death with her bikini top. Should we ban THOSE, too? Should we ban everything? I mean, you can stab someone with a pen, smash in someone's skull with a TV, throw butter knives (yes, those can cut - my mom sliced her finger open on one of those. And, they were metal ones.)...

To myself, guns are to be used in the hands of police officers to save someone or stop criminals, in the hands of soldiers as their means of defense in war, and in the hands of civilians as self-defense. Like just about EVERYTHING that exists, it can be misused. A car can be misused, a fan could be misused, a fricking WATER BOTTLE can be misued, it is a fact of life.

And, last time I checked, this was a poll about someone's siggy, and I don't see the point of starting a huge argument about it. While YOU may be offended by guns, I'M offended by porn, which you guys posted 5-page topic on. I didn't bitch about it, either.
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chickvw
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Post by chickvw »

To myself, guns are to be used in the hands of police officers to save someone or stop criminals, in the hands of soldiers as their means of defense in war, and in the hands of civilians as self-defense. Like just about EVERYTHING that exists, it can be misused. A car can be misused, a fan could be misused, a fricking WATER BOTTLE can be misued, it is a fact of life.

And, last time I checked, this was a poll about someone's siggy, and I don't see the point of starting a huge argument about it. While YOU may be offended by guns, I'M offended by porn, which you guys posted 5-page topic on. I didn't bitch about it, either.
Yes, thank you so much! ^_^ Look at the soldiers that killed the innocent Iraqi! If you used that as an example, not even military trained soldiers deserve guns.... that's not a good view!

and my main bone here is That last bit.. it's ok to talk all you want about perverse items in neo, but not about guns. It's ok to post Neopets getting it on, but not a plushie with a gun? The point wasn't to get you to LIKE it... just to tolerate it. Tolerance is Gooooood.
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syldssuf
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Post by syldssuf »

Thank you, Silverevilchao. You said it more succinctly and clearly than I managed to.

When people start accusing me of things I haven't been doing, I get annoyed. It's only human nature.

Also, ChickVW, over 500 WMDs have been found in Iraq. They were hardly innocent. The people fighting there now are insurgents. Extremist terrorists, plain and simple. Most of the Iraqi people are grateful to the US for getting rid of Saddam (but they also kinda want them to leave already, before they start crushing schoolgirls with tanks, like in Korea).

I should also point out that gunshot wounds aren't lethal the majority of the time, but do stop hostile action. Knife wounds are almost the exact opposite. Fatal a greater percent of the time, but they tend not to cause an instant collapse. Like in the recent stabbing spree in Berlin, many people didn't even realize they'd been stabbed. In contrast, there are numerous documented instances where police fired on a criminal, missed entirely, and the criminal collapsed and passed out anyway, because of the flash and blast. Same mechanisms by which "flashbangs" work.
Last edited by syldssuf on 23 Jun 2006 02:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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AngharadTy
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Post by AngharadTy »

Jazzy and the rest of us <i>are</i> tolerating it. (And incidentally, the last time we had a suggestive-items thread, someone <i>did</i> say they didn't like it.) If we were not tolerating this, we could simply remove the signature in question. We're not saying it's not allowed. We're saying we don't like it.

With suggestive item threads, and porn threads, etc., you can always avoid the thread in question (though let's not get into another "but no I have a compulsion to read every thread"--at least they're marked by subject). Here, I have a chance to see this signature on any thread syldssuf wants to post on. He is forcing it on us more than some random thread forces a subject on us. Several people have said that it disturbs or bothers them, for whatever reason; I think it's rude, deliberately so, to leave it up even after those complaints. It's not like the complainants were unnecessarily rude, in general. No one used all caps or swore or made death threats. The first person to say anything merely said he didn't like it much.
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Silverevilchao
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Post by Silverevilchao »

AngharadTy wrote:Jazzy and the rest of us <i>are</i> tolerating it. (And incidentally, the last time we had a suggestive-items thread, someone <i>did</i> say they didn't like it.) If we were not tolerating this, we could simply remove the signature in question. We're not saying it's not allowed. We're saying we don't like it.

With suggestive item threads, and porn threads, etc., you can always avoid the thread in question (though let's not get into another "but no I have a compulsion to read every thread"--at least they're marked by subject). Here, I have a chance to see this signature on any thread syldssuf wants to post on. He is forcing it on us more than some random thread forces a subject on us. Several people have said that it disturbs or bothers them, for whatever reason; I think it's rude, deliberately so, to leave it up even after those complaints. It's not like the complainants were unnecessarily rude, in general. No one used all caps or swore or made death threats. The first person to say anything merely said he didn't like it much.
1.) Judging by how the posts were worded, it looked like you were yelling at each other. :P
2.) If it bothers you so much, why don't you ask Syldssuf to maybe, reduce his siggy size or something to make it less inconspicuous? I don't think anyone's done that yet. ;)
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syldssuf
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Post by syldssuf »

And I've offered to change the picture and text. No one said a word about that. They were too busy accusing me of making bad comparisons, while making comparisons that are "bad" by their own definitions. Typical.

"You can't compare England with America! Now I'm going to ignore this person comparing England with America because they agree with me!"
Last edited by syldssuf on 23 Jun 2006 02:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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chickvw
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Post by chickvw »

Well Silver, it was suggested he make it smaller, but yes, the posts were a bit more hostile than necessary.

And sorry Syldssuf, I was referring to this very recent incident, where an Iraqi man was kidnapped and killed by soldiers.... can't remember all the details, but they are going to be put on trial.
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syldssuf
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Post by syldssuf »

Several people have said that it disturbs or bothers them, for whatever reason; I think it's rude, deliberately so, to leave it up even after those complaints. It's not like the complainants were unnecessarily rude, in general. No one used all caps or swore or made death threats. The first person to say anything merely said he didn't like it much.
Answer me honestly. If I'd gone with "two-gun plushie" instead, and a couple people complained about the penis reference, but not the guns, would you have considered leaving it intact to be as bad?

And if you're not going to answer me honestly, you should at least be honest with yourself about it. 'Cuz I'm a mind reader, and I know what your honest answer will be.
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AngharadTy
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Post by AngharadTy »

syldssuf wrote:And I've offered to change the picture and text. No one said a word about that.
I'm sorry you got the impression that that wouldn't satisfy us. I personally would be thrilled if you would change either or both. The picture is just kind of bizarre, on the edge of too-far; the text is large and swears at the viewer.
They were too busy accusing me of making bad comparisons, while making comparisons that are "bad" by their own definitions. Typical.
"Typical" of what, exactly? As far as I'm concerned, this is only typical of your tendency to condescension.

Generally, in a debate, you don't attack your own side. But apart from that, this is a very, very poorly structured debate; it would be better if we were making use of the quote feature and responding directly to each point, rather than saying it in general or adding "to the suicide person" (which offended me and I wasn't even the person you were responding to).

Edit to add this, as it was not posted when I posted:
Answer me honestly. If I'd gone with "two-gun plushie" instead, and a couple people complained about the penis reference, but not the guns, would you have considered leaving it intact to be as bad?
Yes. If you were deliberately ignoring the discomfort of others, I would be irritated. What kind of person do you think I am? You don't even know <i>my</i> views on gun control. I like guns. I think there should be <i>much</i> more stringent controls. I don't think they should be illegal altogether. But I'm embarrassed to say so, after all the points you haven't been making in favor of that position. But to imply that I am so callous towards the feelings of others that I would only support some hot-button issues and not others is just rude.
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