Tigrean Revamp (Completed May 31, 2013)

For posting new and revamped pet colours on Subeta.
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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by Wingsrising » 22 Apr 2012 04:43 am

I don't recall what the old Reborn Tigrean looked like, except that I didn't like it. But I remember people weren't happy with the revamp. I agree it's ironic but it also makes perfect sense: by and large, the people who own Reborn Tigreans right now like the current version and don't want it to change. (I wouldn't want mine to change back to the old version, either -- like I said, I didn't like it.) The ones who hated the current version probably don't have one anymore.
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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by AngharadTy » 22 Apr 2012 02:07 pm

Teera wrote:Basically, I felt most people were settling for the Tigreans they had because it was the closest they could get to a mature tiger pet.
Is there a way to quantify that? Because what I like about the Tigrean is that it's a stripey leopard or jaguar. With a grin and that can kill you, as you said, but still--a leopard. I love tigers, but they're not leopards. I mean, while we're at it, I would really love a cheetah pet, because cheetahs are my favorite big cat, but of course I'd hate to see the Tigrean turned into one. I love the Tigrean for what it is, not what it could be.
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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by Seerow » 22 Apr 2012 03:28 pm

As far as the ears, I still feel that, on the old one, they are proportionally smaller than the current one. The original has a very big head that I have always seen as pretty wide. The ears are pulled back on this one, because she's supposed to have that mischievous grin where she's considering whether or not to pounce on you.
As far as the wide skull, except for the Darkmatter recolor, I've never seen the skull as being overly wide. It always looked more like an oval instead of a square.

With the ears pulled back it makes him seem more aggressive and not at all playful. A lot of cats when they are getting ready to pounce have their ears pricked forward to catch every sound, etc. I think the eyes (which I love) and the smirk pull off the mischievous look just fine by themselves. And making it just a bit less aggressive by moving the ears forward would age the pet less and I feel and help that complaint.
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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by Jazzy » 22 Apr 2012 06:02 pm

Cran - I think the reason why people think a lot of people are speaking as staff is the tone of the Subeta subforum has changed quite a bit since we got a larger percentage of staff members. There seems to be a lot more praise* and a lot less critiquing happening than previously, and it's also noticeable when comparing this colour forum to the Neopets equivalent. Now, of course...it might just be that someone is praising a particular colour because they genuinely like it. But if people seem only to post praise, and they didn't previously, and that happens to coincide with their being on staff or closer to staff members, then people put 2 and 2 together and get 4.5.

*The praise also seems to be in the vein of "[insert name here] always does great pets", which puts me off saying anything negative because if you say something after that, it feels a bit personal; you're saying it about someone's work, rather than just another petsite colour.

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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by Cranberry » 22 Apr 2012 06:38 pm

Except that how I post about Subeta art hasn't changed in the past year. I mean, I went back through my posts for three years and I only found one post containing mild criticism of pet art (I didn't like the Spectrum Charlie redraw), along with the line, "I don't love all Subeta pet art, but I usually don't dislike anything enough to actually bother posting about it." That was written before I was on staff. I see several posts from between 2009 and 2010 where I disagreed with others' criticism of new colors -- whether I knew the artist personally or not -- and posted reference images, as I have here. I've always been more critical of Neo pet art than Subeta pet art, and that hasn't changed. Maybe the way some of you perceive me has.
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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by bonecrivain » 22 Apr 2012 07:40 pm

But you were good friends with staff prior to that, weren't you? Your posts, before even you became an official part of Subeta staff, sometimes had that sort of insider feel to them. I think it's nice that Subeta staff is part of our forum. I always liked when Neopets artists would pop in to comment. I have noticed the same trend as Jazzy, though, away from any sort of overt criticism of new art - particularly that of certain Subeta artists. Those who are staff or close to staff are naturally going to be less critical. Some people, like Runic, will unnecessarily take that as a cue that they need to offer implicit agreement with staff's decisions. Other people will just choose to not bother posting, because they don't want to say something like, "I think the face of the ___ ____ is too narrow, and doesn't match the feel of the pet," and then get a defensive response from someone who knows that artist.

NC is built on the idea of people talking about what they do and do not like about pet art. Subeta threads seem, of late, to mostly be praise threads. You don't see many stretching to multiple pages anymore, which is why I'm particularly glad to see that this one is already on page 4 (although, granted, much of it has been off-topic).

So....to get back on topic. I do fall in the category of, "I wish Tigreans looked more like tigers, because then I'd probably own a few." I chose the darkmatter tigrean for my pet Thiefly, because it was the one I felt looked MOST like a tiger out of the bunch, and was therefore the only one I could consider owning. I'd love to have more options, so this revamp could be an exciting one for me. But I don't think it's fair to take someone else's existing pet, which they already love, and transform it into something that I *might* like.

I see this as a sort of reborn kumos situation - I got a pet I adore out of that revamp, but a lot of people were terribly unhappy with how their pet changed from a sleek sighthound to a bulkier dog. Maybe Jill originally meant for the Tigrean to be more of an actual tiger, and maybe it's something that I and some other Subeta folks would appreciate, but the fact of the matter is that the current Tigrean is a sleeker animal. It's more of a leopard. It's skinnier, younger, and sneakier. If those are the elements that make people attached to their pets, you can't just take that away and give them a different species, telling them they SHOULD like it because that's how the pet was meant to be.

I think another problem with these types of polls is that people are only voting for the basic color. How many people own a basic-colored Tigrean? People who vote for the new revamp might not be considering its impact on the recolors like glacier or reborn, and if given a chance to vote on THOSE particular revamps, might not choose the new version. Those tend to be the ones that get a bigger outcry, and I think that's the main source of worry for this particular revamp.

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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by Cranberry » 22 Apr 2012 08:08 pm

I think another problem with these types of polls is that people are only voting for the basic color. How many people own a basic-colored Tigrean? People who vote for the new revamp might not be considering its impact on the recolors like glacier or reborn, and if given a chance to vote on THOSE particular revamps, might not choose the new version. Those tend to be the ones that get a bigger outcry, and I think that's the main source of worry for this particular revamp.
Yeah, I can see that. I don't come at it the same way, but I can see it. Personally, I don't worry much about the common color because I can usually seem to find a redraw I quite like even if I dislike the common (for example, I really dislike the current common tigrean's curly chest fur and three bulbous toes, but those are all covered up on the reborn, which is the only tigrean I own. The darkmatter, the only other tigrean I really like, has a thumb claw in addition to the three toes, with the chest fur hidden). I guess that when it comes to my pets, I see it as "this pet has to be a big cat, but I'm flexible about color," so I don't worry much because there are lots of redraws for me to pick and choose from. But I can see how others would be very attached to a specific pet/color combination and worry more about changes to common affecting that special color down the line.

I also wanted to reiterate that I don't think anyone's opinion on this issue is wrong, and that I'm not responding to complaints, just sharing my POV. :)
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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by Wingsrising » 22 Apr 2012 11:54 pm

Right, that's the problem. Once you have a pet in a particular color and have a story and character to match, just changing their color and/or species doesn't necessarily work anymore. (Which is one reason my pet Shadowdance is still a Darkmatter Montre in spite of the fact I don't like the new art.)

Also... the 5mil+ sP it takes to repaint pets to/from some of the redraw colors isn't chump change!
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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by Fjorab_Teke » 24 Apr 2012 05:28 am

Wow, this really has generated a lot of attention. And i see that a lot of the first impressions mirror mine.

This right here is the main reason why i keep losing interest in Subeta. The new art is fabulous, but it tends to change the look and feel of the pets TOO much.

It makes me glad i'm not such a fan of the Tigrean that i want one, but (like the old Fester) i appreciate that it's there. The new tiger-pet is stunning, but it's not a Tigrean.

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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by Foghawk » 28 Apr 2012 03:56 am

(Late post is late, sorry.)

It seems like this thread has turned into a sort of art-vs-character discussion. Which makes sense, really, because that (and the way Subeta has responded to reactions to revamps on that count) are a serious thing. But it surprised me a bit when I went through the thread, because my first thought was 'But I don't like the art as much'. Okay, it fixes a lot of things that were wrong with the old one. It's more realistic, the pose is better; I don't think I need to reiterate the good points. But I do think it's still got some issues.

First, I was pretty surprised that given the heavy revamp the rest of the pet got, its feet were left pretty much alone. (I'll also just drop in here that I agree with TCStarwind's comments about the little corgi legs.) They fit in well enough with the old art, but now they stick out like sore.. well, feet. They've got four toes now, and they're closer in size; that's a step up. That incredibly distracting uneven baseline's been fixed (whew).But they're still just round little circles—no indication of claws, no suggestion of the length of the toes or the flattened, sort of trapezoidal shape you get from the way they press together. There's no real sign of bones in the toes, or structure in the wrists and ankles. At the very least, given the changes to the marking pattern around the cheeks and sides, I'd've expected the improbably clean division of red and white to be adjusted, but nope, still there.

Second—and this is probably my single biggest problem with the pet—is that it seems really lacking in depth. The shading is undoubtedly more realistic, but it simply isn't as varied as the old art's. One of the things I've always really loved about Jill's work is the incredible vividness of the shading—not exactly realistic but sharper and cleaner and brighter than real life. The old Tigrean shows some of it; look at the fur near the elbow, or the side of the thigh. That's good. What's more, large areas of light are broken of by darkness, and darkness by light. The new art has a whole swatch of image, from the foot up the shoulder across the side and back and down to the knee, that's more or less the same color, and the face is a similar shade. At a glance, it feels flatter and almost less realistic than the old art. (I suspect the marking change may also be partly to blame. The old markings were heavy, complex tribal shapes and widely spaced; the new ones are more a single pattern than shapes in themselves and do less to break up the image. More realistic, yes—pretty, maybe not as.) There are some anomalies, too: the small markings at the back of the head get lost in the shading, and the back leg is interestingly textured, but the strokes don't seem to line up so it doesn't come across as fur.

I also note that the color balance has shifted to redder reds and grays, which—well, I really like bright blue-whites, but that's not really justifiable on any basis. The grayer colors aren't a problem in themselves, but combined with the very fine detail in their application and the fact that the lines seem slightly thinner than is usual for Subeta, seem to lose a lot of definition in the lines around the cheek and chest, and clarity of line is also something I've always really admired in the artist's work. Overall, I get the distinct impression that this looked a lot better at the working size.

Finally, I'll agree with the comments made about the change in the character of the pet. But I suspect a lot of this comes just from the new cheek tufts. The rest of the lines on the head—the curve of the mouth, the eyes, the ears—still have that angled shape and swept-back look; it's just the rounded cheeks and their drooping fur that's pulling them down. I think that paring those back, changing them to something like the backwards-pointing tuft of the old Tigrean or even doing away with them altogether, would even absent any other change bring the new art much closer in line with the personality of the old pet. I can't do an experimental edit at the moment, but I'd be curious to see it that way; might even make a good compromise.

TL;DR: what's up with the feet/shading/lines/cheek tufts
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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by Ierosbats » 01 Jun 2013 01:16 am

Wups, bumping a year-old thread. But we might as well recycle, right?

Anyway, the revamp is now complete, along with a few of the redraws.

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Old, Proposed Revamp, Final Revamp

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http://www.neocolours.me.uk/subeta/sube ... es=tigrean

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I'm much happier with this version. I'm still not entirely convinced the pet's original attitude survived, but it's a lot closer and I can tell a real effort was made. That counts for quite a bit. Shrinking the nose and adding more "eyeliner" went a long way. The stripes are still gorgeous. The head markings look more like a skull now, which I assume is intentional. I didn't really notice that on the first version (or if I did I can't remember), but I kinda like it. I think the biggest improvements are no more shaggy chest hair and no more crazy, shiny butt. Not sure why the foot-spikes shrank so much. Was that an unpopular feature? Anyway, it took a year but it was worth the wait! The news comments seemed fairly positive.

As much as I like the redraw revamps (Darkmatter, especially. Those ears are adorable) I'm pretty worried for my Glacier. I don't doubt that the updated art will be better, but... I think with that pet, more than any of my other pets, what sold me was its attitude and not the art itself. I love the art too, but it was secondary and that's not usually the case. I know overlays of the old version are always an option, but I avoid that when I can. It feels like cheating in a way I know is ridiculous and not true. I really hope I don't have to use one.

That saaaaid... I've been holding out on making a Graveyard Tigrean for years because as much as I like the current version, I think a revamp could really help it out. Hopefully we don't have to wait until Morostide to get it.
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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by RNA » 01 Jun 2013 01:21 am

The foremost thing that bugs me about the new version is that the eyebrows are no more. Eyebrows make a world of difference.
Darkmatter and Bloodred look amazing though. I wish Chibi had a smaller head though.
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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by Seerow » 01 Jun 2013 01:23 am

Wow didn't realize this thread was so old! Over a year for this revamp.

The Tigrean Revamp has finally gone through and I don't think enough tweaks were made on the new one from the proposed revamp.

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A lot of people didn't like the feet on the revamp proposal so they were edited here but I don't think the "Kiss the royal paw" pose was such a good idea. The dainty feel doesn't match the rest of the attitude of the pet. I am glad the pet was toned down and lost nearly all the belly fur, though I wish the waist was a but more defined. The heel claws are almost non existent now. Granted they were utterly useless for anything, but it was a unique feature of the Tigrean and it is a shame to see them go.

I do like some of the recolors, especially the Darkmatter, the skull shape looks much better from that angle. Also for some reason looks a lot better in the Cream coloring! I like the idea on the Chibi version but the face just looks too strange to me. I love the prancing pose though.

I hope the Glacial revamp goes well, I've owned one since they came out almost.
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Re: Tigrean Revamp (Completed May 31, 2013)

Post by Griffin » 01 Jun 2013 01:37 am

I like it a lot but it's so different. I'll be sad when the Reborn gets updated for consistency, because I think it's one of the coolest looking pet designs and it'll probably lose a little something. (I have one, but she's overlayed and I hoped to turn her into a Reborn Serpenth as soon as they're updated. But I think my pet Damon needs to be a Tigrean and the updated Reborn would probably suit him well.)

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Re: Tigrean Revamp (Completed May 31, 2013)

Post by AngharadTy » 01 Jun 2013 01:44 am

I don't like the way the forepaw is being tentatively set down, middle of the motion, stuck almost being on the ground forever. Sometimes mid-motion poses just don't work for me at all, and this is one of those times. That alone ruins it for me even though it's better in every other way. I like how much attention was paid to the critiques; I like the belly, so much improved, and the subtle slimming that was done in a few places for the final version. I've come to terms with the idea of it being a straight-up tiger pet by now (although: let me reiterate how much I would like to have a leopard and/or cheetah pet), and it looks good. But I weirdly cannot handle that paw. I just want to press down on it until it's flat on the ground.

Some of the recolors are very good; the nuclear tigrean is a pet I was always on the verge of getting but was afraid of revamps. I like the update a lot. If the paw were different, it would be a real possibility for one of my pets.

I've also always loved the bloodred tigrean and I think this revamp keeps a lot of the elements I adored so much while making it a much better pet overall. That said, there's something about the mouth that feels off--the angle? The black linework? I'm not sure. Almost a 10/10, but not quite.
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