Tigrean Revamp (Completed May 31, 2013)

For posting new and revamped pet colours on Subeta.
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Ierosbats
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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by Ierosbats » 21 Apr 2012 11:33 pm

...what are you talking about? Wings isn't speaking for the whole site. All she said is that a considerable number of people prefer the old version, and that's absolutely true. You just said yourself that at least 1600 people prefer the old version. That's not everyone, but it's a significant portion of the voters. Besides, these kinds of polls aren't really about winning or losing. It's all relative. Sometimes, the results show a clear preference for the new version, and sometimes, like in this instance, they don't. When the results are mixed like this, all it means is the artist has to be a little more careful than they might be otherwise, which Teera has already acknowledged.

No one here is challenging the staff's right to do anything. Posting what we like and dislike about the proposed revamp isn't disrespectful to them, it's doing what they're asking of us. Again, if they wanted to show how powerful they are, they'd just put the revamp straight through and post it in the news and block comments. The artist explicitly posted that she's very conscious of how attached people are to the current version. I don't know why you're trying to make the staff seem like dictators. Anyway, this is getting off topic, but honestly. No one is pretending like this revamp won't happen, or that the staff simply can't do this to us oh noes. But for those of us who own Tigreans and aren't entirely satisfied with the changes, this is our opportunity to voice our sincere concerns.

Also, "if you don't like it, don't get a Tigrean" doesn't exactly work for those of us who already own one or more of them. I think I'll choose to ignore the always thoughtful and utterly convincing "if you don't like it, just quit" argument.
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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by bonecrivain » 21 Apr 2012 11:36 pm

I think "1614 want to keep the current" is a pretty reasonable statistical number. Just because there's a majority FOR the revamp right now doesn't mean you can ignore all the people who voted against it. That's not how numbers work.

I'm not going to engage too heavily in the debate here, because I'm one of the people who has never really liked the Tigrean - I've always thought it had too much of an emo teenager feel, and I wished it looked more like an actual tiger. For that reason, I don't have too much of an issue with the proposed revamp. I never have understood the reasoning behind revamping popular recolors, though. Why would you change something like the glacier tigrean when the art is good, current, and something that doesn't need to look precisely like the basic colors? I'm still heavily dreading a potential spectrum montre revamp and really don't know what I would do with my favorite and most important pet if that happened.

Regardless of any of that, though, I think your arguments are falling rather short here. If you're happy with the revamp, that's your choice. People who aren't happy with it - and there are clearly well over a thousand users who aren't - also have the right to express their opinions, without being told that their concerns really aren't that valid, since they're not staff. Sure, staff can decide to ignore everyone and do what they want with the site, but is that in their or the site's best interest? No. A site and a game depend upon fans and people who continue to play and pay. The art is a huge part of most players' investment in Subeta, and it's perfectly reasonable to expect people to have strong opinions about it, or to be upset at the possibility of their favorite pets changing in a way they feel doesn't reflect the original art.

I don't think this is an argument; it's closer to a debate, which is something that NC has been sorely lacking of late. If you have strong feelings for or against something, express them! Just back them up.

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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by AngharadTy » 21 Apr 2012 11:37 pm

40% of the users is enough to comprise "a fair number of Subeta users" in my book, but it's kind of a question of semantics at that point. How do you define "a fair number"? Of course, there have only been one or two revamp polls where the old one won, ever. It's the bias of the new. Not to mention that, in my opinion, a fair number of Subeta users are complete brownnosers. ;)

I am also not going to automatically respect someone because they have a red icon. Everyone has to earn respect through their actions. And this is not a military; they do not outrank me. I am my own boss. And if a company told me something like "Thanks for the feedback but we're going to ignore you because we know what's best for you," that is not a company I would give my money to. (And that is a good part of the reason I don't give Subeta my money anymore--too many consistent failures of service. Instead, I give it to other games with microtransaction services; it's one of my favorite systems.)

We also like to discuss things here. There is absolutely nothing wrong with carrying on a discussion about pets and colors and revamps on a site devoted to pets and colors and revamps. That said, "just leave the site" is never an argument that is very welcome--obviously we like the site enough to keep on with it, and when you care about a thing, you want it to be good, and providing constructive criticism--even offsite (as many staff do visit here)--is one way to help keep the quality of the site high.
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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by Runic » 22 Apr 2012 12:15 am

Again, I wasn't trying to argue. But when you say things like "You're a sheep"...those are fighting words in my world. x.x;

again, let bygones be bygones.

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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by Cranberry » 22 Apr 2012 12:17 am

Wingsrising wrote: I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, but I'm not sure what your larger point is. The fact that Subeta has changed pets before doesn't mean I have to agree that they should do it again with the Tigrean.
Oh no, of course not! I'm not trying to convince you that this change is best for the site, or necessary in any way. You're free to dislike (or even hate) it. I was just pointing out that other pets have changed to have smaller ears (bovyne) or to look older (chelon, velosotor), or have even been updated massively (irion), so it's not like Jill is deciding to do something drastic and unprecedented here on a whim. The pet is becoming a more mature, more realistic version of its real-life-animal inspiration. Subeta's art has evolved in this way before, multiple times, and I think it's hyperbolic to compare this to the ruffie becoming an adult German shepherd or an Arctic fox, and kind of hurtful to accuse Jill of drawing her own personal art rather than attempting to appeal to the majority of users. I've seen her commenting everywhere, taking so many opinions into account, and it's obvious she really cares about making people happy.
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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by AngharadTy » 22 Apr 2012 12:32 am

I didn't mean that it's as dramatic as making a ruffie an arctic fox; I meant that it's a species change. If the species changes a ton, that's obviously bad, even though they're closely related. But if the species only mostly changes, that's okay because... it's only mostly changed? (Although, if a ruffie is a puppy, making it a german shepherd wouldn't be a species change at all, but whatever.)

And I definitely don't want to hurt the artist, but when the rationale provided is "I wanted to do it this way from the start" then how else can I respond to the personal statement but on a personal level? From everything I've seen, she is a very nice person, and I know from her other art that she is a very good artist. But I still think she's wrong to change the tigrean so much into a tiger. I have tried hard to phrase my criticisms politely because, like, I know the artist's name and she's such a great person and all--it is really damn hard to criticize Subeta art on NC anymore because of this fear of hurting someone's feelings.

Also:
Runic wrote:Again, I wasn't trying to argue. But when you say things like "You're a sheep"...those are fighting words in my world. x.x;
There is nothing wrong with debating. And I didn't call you a sheep: I warned you against becoming a sheep, and then I quoted Futurama. Srs business! And if it made you angry, that is all right; sharks get angry!
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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by bonecrivain » 22 Apr 2012 12:39 am

My point is, Runic, that you keep fighting back and then backing down as though arguing about pet colors is a bad thing. You can't throw fuel on a fire and then say, "Oh, sorry, let's forget that's burning." Take ownership of your opinions and come up with logic that will actually back up what you're trying to say. If you read my post, you'd see that I'm actually agreeing with you to some extent on the revamp. I like it. If you want to talk more about WHY you like it, you should continue, but it should be based on YOUR reasons, and not on a mentality of "well, anything staff says goes, so let's just back off and let them do whatever they want with us."

Like Topher said, the point of the poll is to ask for our constructive criticism. That means expressing what's good about the proposed revamp, as well as the parts that we would like changed. Most revamps do get some adjustments based on initial feedback, so now's the time to speak up. I'd bet that the final result will have a little less of a defined butt, for example.

Ty wasn't directly calling you a sheep, but if you want to prove her wrong, don't keep saying, "I am not a sheep" and then reiterating how Staff Knows Best.

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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by Runic » 22 Apr 2012 12:40 am

Well, not so much angry. Just hurt a little. ^^;;;;
I do take your advice though, and in the future I'll just keep silent. It's probably better I don't say anything anyways. I'm not meant to debate it seems. xD;;

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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by bonecrivain » 22 Apr 2012 12:47 am

Runic wrote:I do take your advice though, and in the future I'll just keep silent.
Direct opposite of my advice, and Ty's, I think. We've both said several times that debating is a GOOD thing. The more you embrace YOUR opinions, versus accepting staff's nebulous superpowers, the more sharklike you're going to be. ;)

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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by Runic » 22 Apr 2012 01:00 am

Unfortunately, I'm just chickenshit. My opinions just get me into trouble (like right now), so it'd be better for me to just stop now. xD;;
Don't mind me, I'll just go away now. |D;;;

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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by AngharadTy » 22 Apr 2012 01:04 am

You're not in trouble! But don't do anything you're not comfortable doing. Anyway, this thread needs to get back on topic. Tigreans!
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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by Ierosbats » 22 Apr 2012 01:17 am

If we weren't allowed to post controversial opinions here, I'd basically never get to post anything. But I'm a honeybadger, I post what I want. That's the great thing about NC. As long as you have at least some logic behind your opinion, and you aren't just saying things for the sake of saying things, your posts are encouraged. We love debating! Our forum has been around for a long time, in several different forms, but debating about pet colours has always been the cornerstone. I'm sorry if your feelings were hurt, Runic. No one is trying to attack you for liking the revamp. I'd just like to believe that you like it because you like it, and not because the artist likes it.

I know it would really bog down the system, but I wish they'd poll specific pet revamps, too. Like the Glacier Tigrean. I know I sound like a biased broken record, but... I can't help it! I'm concerned. And if you look at the NC pet rankings, the Tigrean is actually the second most popular glacier pet, and close to being in the top three reborn pets. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right? The new tiger is pretty, so the common pose revamp (with some tweaks) I can probably get behind, but I'm not at all sold on revamping the redraws. I feel like the primary point of a revamp should be to make a pet more popular and appealing on a wider scale. Unfortunately, on Subeta, I think that's sort of become second priority to keeping art consistent. Change for change's sake always rubs me the wrong way. I don't really care about style-consistency. I just care about quality-consistency, and the Tigrean redraws are already great!
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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by Wingsrising » 22 Apr 2012 02:09 am

Cranberry wrote: I think it's hyperbolic to compare this to the ruffie becoming an adult German shepherd or an Arctic fox, and kind of hurtful to accuse Jill of drawing her own personal art rather than attempting to appeal to the majority of users. I've seen her commenting everywhere, taking so many opinions into account, and it's obvious she really cares about making people happy.
I wasn't implying she wasn't: I was responding to a comment about how it wasn't fair to limit the artist's ability to challenge her artistic skills by insisting that the new Tigrean should keep some important characteristics of the old Tigrean. My response: on the contrary, it's totally fair. She can challenge her artistic skills all she wants -- no one's trying to stop her from drawing as many big cats as you please -- but if you're trying to sell anything, including art, you have to shape whatever you're producing according to what the market wants.

I think part of the problem is that Subeta has a pretty long history of responding to user complaints about changes by saying, essentially, "But you SHOULD like the new version better, because it's better! And it's our site and we can do what we want!" And then releasing items mocking their users for complaining. This is not generally a good way to get people to want to spend money on your site. It's gotten much better than it used to be, but I still think it's one of site's biggest weaknesses.

So I admit I have a sort of knee-jerk reaction to staff members responding to complaints by saying things to the effect of, "Well, I originally wanted the ears to be small" or "We revamp pets drastically all the time!"
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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by Cranberry » 22 Apr 2012 02:42 am

I'm not speaking as a staffer here... I have absolutely nothing to do with art aside from occasionally requesting a certain battle opponent. I don't think Jill and I have ever had a real conversation, either, so I'm not even defending a friend or anything. Just wanted to be clear that I speak for me and only me. I don't see this as a drastic revamp, but as an update. I think there's a precedent for it. I get that others disagree, and that's totally fine. I'm not trying to respond to criticism from some kind of official standpoint; I'm saying what I think. I like the proposed revamp a lot and it would make me more excited about the tigrean that I own.

And in my posts, I used "I" statements and discussed what Subeta had done in the past, not what "we" had done. I'm kind of sad that I can't share opinions here without being seen as "a staff member" instead of as just me. I've only been on staff for a short time... you guys have known me much longer than that.
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Re: Tigrean Revamp

Post by Teera » 22 Apr 2012 04:32 am

I have tried hard to phrase my criticisms politely because, like, I know the artist's name and she's such a great person and all--it is really damn hard to criticize Subeta art on NC anymore because of this fear of hurting someone's feelings.
I'm not hurt by critique. I mean, I know I haven't reacted well here in the past, but I feel like I'm at a point now where critiques don't faze me (because they shouldn't, and I know that.) What can still get to me (and probably shouldn't) are more personal things. If somebody says the butt is too shapely, or the eyes are too small and the feet just look weird, that's fine. Even if I might not see those initially, or even agree with them, it's something that I can fix or explain my reasons for doing it that way (and then, if I find my reasons aren't sound, I can fix it anyway.) But when somebody assumes I've done something out of laziness or a personal agenda or a way to trick them out of money or otherwise personally slight them, I can't do anything with that, especially if none of those things were the reason for me doing something a certain way.

I think I didn't word my initial post here very well. It's not purely personal that I would like to see tigreans get a revamp. I've done a number of special colors for these guys, and with every one, it felt like people were disappointed in some way. I think the only one where that didn't really happen was Glacier, and that may have been because it was one of the first Glaciers and therefore didn't have much to compare to. But every other color seemed to meet with lackluster. Reborn the most, since it was a revamp. If it weren't for the flame design on the back, I honestly don't think anyone would've warmed to it (and it's rather ironic, since when it was revamped, people hated it for being an angsty looking teenage version of the previous mature adult Reborn tigrean. And now some dislike the proposed revamp for the opposite reason.) Basically, I felt most people were settling for the Tigreans they had because it was the closest they could get to a mature tiger pet. The feli is just a cat, the archan is stout and sturdy, the celinox is more peaceful and happy, and then you have the tigrean, who I always saw (even if I couldn't portray it well) as being the type with a mischievous grin that could also slit your throat if you're not careful around them.

As far as the ears, I still feel that, on the old one, they are proportionally smaller than the current one. The original has a very big head that I have always seen as pretty wide. The ears are pulled back on this one, because she's supposed to have that mischievous grin where she's considering whether or not to pounce on you.

Anyway, I've taken a long time to say that I'm not insulted by critique on the art in the slightest, so don't worry about that at all. But I did want to clear up that it wasn't JUST that I wanted to update the art on my own, regardless of what current owners wanted.

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