a second protest against checkers' behaviour

[daisybell]

Three months ago I made this topic: viewtopic.php?t=5893. I still wish I hadn't had to make it, but I felt it was very important that the community made it clear that they were very unhappy with the way checkers was behaving in his posts. We said that it was important checkers' behaviour should change.

Three months after that topic, has his behaviour changed? I believe it has not. He still backseat mods and is rude to people- and often he is rude to the mods, which is to me unacceptable. If a member of the community does not show respect to the people we have elected to positions of authority and responsibility, then how do we keep an orderly community? If it were solely isolated incidents or one off things then we would have passed it by, but it is not. It cannot be the case that checkers does not know better because many times the mods have pointed out what he has done wrong.

For reference, here are some of the incidents in the last month:

viewtopic.php?p=106197&highlight=#106197 -rudeness

viewtopic.php?p=106117&highlight=#106117 -backseat modding and rudeness

viewtopic.php?p=106113&highlight=#106113 - not having respect for other peoples' art (another form of rudeness)

viewtopic.php?p=106112&highlight=#106112 -rudeness and disrespect for the mods

viewtopic.php?p=106091&highlight=#106091 - backseat modding

viewtopic.php?p=105237&highlight=#105237 - inappropriately posting large images, reposting them after they were removed by a mod, direct linking from a site which does not allow it

viewtopic.php?p=104545&highlight=#104545 - asking for someone else's job back, which is utterly lacking in thought and respect for the person involved

viewtopic.php?p=105389&highlight=#105389 - unnecessarily being argumentative

viewtopic.php?p=104400&highlight=#104400 - again, being argumentative

viewtopic.php?p=104165&highlight=#104165 - sibling rivalry on the forum, which is something which has been pointed out before, and he has been requested not to do it more than one time.

viewtopic.php?p=104741&highlight=#104741 - not thinking before posting and spamming AaToW- two posts down he again posts that his GA has expired.

I would like to note that I make this post with no authority other than as a member of the community who is frustrated by checkers' behaviour- and in Neocolours we have a tradition of the members having a say in matters concerning the community. Again, I think it is important that someone states the problem as it is, to make it clear that something is wrong.

What do we do now? That is up to the community. I really do hope we can have a rational discussion without flames, personal insults and so on, because if nothing else they diminish the integrity of the argument. I am more than willing to justify the things I have said if necessary, but I hope I have not said any more than stating what I feel are the facts and my opinions in as non-aggressive a fashion as possible.

[FourEyes]

I've been reading through the first topic you made about him, as I wasn't here at the time it was first made... In my opinion, he HAS improved slightly, but he does get on my nerves occasionally. Young age isn't an excuse for immaturity. I'm probably one of the youngest members of Neocolours myself.

[adi_gallia]

I'm not going to input much here but. I think the first post isn't exactly rude, Cranberry asked for a posh and old Subeautique item and he showed some. I think it was selective, yes, but I think the Dew Boreas Earrings and Shawl are quite posh and I can see a 40-50 year old wearing them (as well as younger people). I think he was just posting a selction of items that are sold there that he considers posh and old.

Then Cranberry said

those aren't old (OR the first items people think of when they picture Subeautique)

How does she know what the first items people think of in Subeautique? The Dew Boreas set he posted is one of my favourite Subeautique sets, but yes the UnicornVomit, Kozmic Nebula and Eddie Bell ranges aren't exactly posh and old.

I just don't see how that one is rude, she asked for a posh and old item and he showed her some, it wasn't exactly like he said "Well here is some posh and old clothes so shut up bitch, kthxbai"

In the fifth post down, if Ty wasn't so rude by saying he may have a problem with his eyes or brain, for once mistaking the old Sun Sheeta for Common (when really the only major differences where the brown highlights being orange and the fur being made vaguely more orange) then maybe he wouldn't have responded in the same way. By the way I can tell the differences between the Sun and Common Sheetas and I don't like how the revamped versions are really bright, I just understand that it could be a mistaken view.

The next one down, with Rustyblu. Well posting hints for the Trivia is against the rules and Rustyblus post read. "The answer for the trivia is on the news page and the trivia page", which made the answer for the trivia very obvious to me and ladynight. (the answer to the trivia was S and you got this by looking at all the initials on the sidebar). But I don't think posting his post made a difference, what was posted was posted. I actually don't see which part was back seat modding, it was rather umm..telling him off for breaking Subeta rules?

The ninth example is actually down to Ty misunderstanding checkers post, probably due to bad punctaution or something. He said

Ok, Rah I'm going to try and give helpful crits about the Sheeta below

What it should have read is

Ok Rah. I'm going to try and give helpful crits about the Sheeta below

As in, Ok Rah I understand what you are saying, I'll give some criticisms about the Sheeta below. I believe Rah said something about people needing to give helpful criticisms to the artists rather than 'OMG I HATE IT'

Ty thought he meant Ok Rah, I'm going to give YOU some criticisms of the Sheeta. Apparently trying to explain yourself is now unnecessarily being argumentative. I think that's just how checkers is.

Uhh, they are the only posts that you highlighted that I would like to bother defending him on. I wont deny he is a pain, he's just like that as a person, argumentative. I think that sometimes he types something and it doesn't make sense, due to bad punctuation or choice of words and it changes the meaning of it and we are quite quick to jump on it.

I actually posted a whole lot more than I was expecting, I can't really be bothered to be involved in this as I think it will go the same way as the last one. Everyone posting 'Oh yeah, that guy is annoying, I've seen worse' and nothing comes out of it.

Trying to make checkers not be annoying is like trying to make a bull not charge at red, it doesn't happen. (well I don't know about the bull analogy, I just couldn't think of anything else)

[Figment]

Unfortunately, Daisy's examples are just the tip of the iceberg. I have been lucky enough to have been spared trying to negotiate with checkers via PM, but the other mods have been attempting for months, with no apparent effect, to deal with checkers. I usually would hesitate about bringing private PMs up in a public discussion, but in this case I feel that it is vital context for the increasingly frustrated, snippy and, yes, even sometimes rude tone that the moderators have been taking in public posts to checkers. It is a result of being ignored, argued with, and disrespected both in private and in public basically since the day checkers joined. Unfortunately, all of the correctional attempts that have been made are not visible to the public -- which is as it should be -- but I think it is very important that the community know how extensive our efforts with checkers have been, and also that they have been blatantly ignored and dismissed by him.

It really is a pity that a thread like this has to be made again, but I am wholly glad that you have brought it up, Daisy. I can only think of one other person in NC history who has maintained a longer history as a "problem member" than checkers has. Only one other member who has singlehandedly been a source of so much work and stress for the moderators. Sure, he is young, but youth is not an excuse for such intractable rudeness, especially when you remember that many of our established members were as young or younger when they joined the site. It is not our job to babysit unruly children, but that is often what I feel we are doing as we attempt to coexist peacefully with checkers.

We have worked extensively to give suggestions on what is and is not appropriate behaviour for an internet community, and yet checkers seems incapable or unwilling to change. If anything, I think he has gotten worse. Posting some unnamed, nonmember's art is borderline art theft, something we have always had a zero-tolerance for on NC, and the message he wrote about NyauNyau to subeta blatantly violates all laws of common sense and internet ettiquette. I personally responded to both of these incidents, but checkers apparently didn't even see a need to apologize or explain his behaviour for either of them -- he has not even, in my knowledge, admitted that they were wrong. This is hugely problematic to me. In my mind, he is escalating from the behaviours we had seen as troublesome before -- while still maintaining his insolent, dismissive attitude towards those of us who try to curtail it. What are the chances of someone changing if they refuse to acknowledge that they were wrong? He has shown no sign of remorse for these two VERY serious actions, which indicates to me that he is likely to keep doing similar things.

What's the solution? I'm not sure yet. I will think on it and post some more, I'm sure, but I wanted to give my perspective on this issue. I am always reluctant to throw around serious punishments like banning, but it is clear that checkers is unwilling to work with the moderators, and some sort of probationary period would only mean that we would have to watchdog him more than we are already forced to -- something that would be exhausting and probably ultimately ineffectual.

[Spivsy]

I don't think there's anything drastically wrong with checkers, he's just a little annoying is all.

[Bacon]

I agree he can be quite annoying, but can't he read this?

[checkers]

I agree he can be quite annoying, but can't he read this?

Yeah, they're not exactly hidden from me I think they're made to be like that.
I may be annoying and sometimes rude, but I do too have feelings and seeing pretty much everyone (on this one and the other) say they either hate me, dislike me or don't mind me is a bit rude.

Daisybell, both times it was you, why did you make another one? and not PM Jazzy or another Mod? as the other one was just people ranting on, like this will be soon.

The NyauNyau thing, I didn't feel a need to apologise to anyone, maybe NyauNyau but noone else, I didn't apologise because I recieved a PM from somebody on this site telling me that it wasn't a bad thing to do, and that I was just made to look like I did something wrong.

-Continues to try and ignore this topic- - Ignoring some comments I don't want to read. Example: He's a ___. (example)

[Figment]

Saying that you're going to "continue to ignore" this topic highlights EXACTLY what our problem with you is, checkers. You continually ignore input from the community, specifically the forum-elected community heads whose job it is to maintain relative peace here. Maybe if you actually LISTENED to our input then we wouldn't have a second thread like this at all. Saying that you aren't going to even read a thread that discusses your standing here isn't exactly a good way of communicating that you're willing or ready to work to be a functioning member.

Thanks for proving my points.

Regarding NyauNyau -- I don't know what her feelings are on this and so I will not continue to reference it. I don't know if she would be comfortable with me doing so. I was simply personally horrified by the inappropriateness of your action in writing and then posting it publicly for exactly this reason -- because you did not stop to consider her thoughts on the issue. And because of my worry about this issue I really, really do not want to continue talking about it without any knowledge of how she feels.

[dandelions]

<i>Did</i> you apologise to Nyau, though? I don't think you've once apologised to a single person here, even when they've told you exactly what you've done wrong.

I couldn't create this topic because if you're going to be banned or suspended, I'll be the one to carry it out. I can't say "I think he should be banned because of ___" and then expect people to see me as having made a balanced judgment; my bias would be immediately evident from the first post.

I also don't understand why you're inventing examples of what people haven't said.

[checkers]

Saying that you're going to "continue to ignore" this topic highlights EXACTLY what our problem with you is, checkers. You continually ignore input from the community, specifically the forum-elected community heads whose job it is to maintain relative peace here. Maybe if you actually LISTENED to our input then we wouldn't have a second thread like this at all. Saying that you aren't going to even read a thread that discusses your standing here isn't exactly a good way of communicating that you're willing or ready to work to be a functioning member.

Thanks for proving my points.

I read the topic, and if you read my post it said Ignore posts like Hes a __, so far none of the current posts have been helpful or useful, alike the old topics what good does ranting and arguing, do? nothing really.
It's just a way to publically (forum wise) upset or embarriss me.

I'd just like to point out some logic. You're not really ignoring this topic if you're posting in it.

I did say try to, but it's kind of hard when it's titled you and everyone talks about you. Really isn't it? :/

Edit:
And Dandelions, I did apologise to NyauNyau in that topic if you read it. I have also apologised to a few people in the past.

Heh, sorry I couldn't bare not seeing your art on the site and asked Chimaera and Kelpie about this situation. So you're not fired after all, you can go back if you wish. REALLY really sorry for getting involved.

[Bacon]

I'd just like to point out some logic. You're not really ignoring this topic if you're posting in it.

[daisybell]

I agree he can be quite annoying, but can't he read this?

Yeah, they're not exactly hidden from me I think they're made to be like that.
I may be annoying and sometimes rude, but I do too have feelings and seeing pretty much everyone (on this one and the other) say they either hate me, dislike me or don't mind me is a bit rude.

Daisybell, both times it was you, why did you make another one? and not PM Jazzy or another Mod? as the other one was just people ranting on, like this will be soon.

Firstly, this is the way we do things here on Neocolours- it's how it's always been done. I agree it was unfortunate it was me twice, however, I have consulted with the mods, Jazzy in particular. In a way, I felt it important to update on the previous topic.

And no, it doesn't have to be ranting on. We can say we're not happy without ranting, or being rude or aggressive. I don't doubt that you have feelings, but so do we, and it's important that you know we're unhappy.

I'd like to point out that I'm protesting against your behaviour and not you, yourself. Hence the topic title. This is really the only way the members of NC can demonstrate their feelings- and we are a highly member-led community.

-Continues to try and ignore this topic- - Ignoring it because some comments I don't want to read. Example: He's a ___. (example)

I hope that no one posts uncalled for personal attacks. They don't help at all. If you ignore this topic, then it is at your peril, I suppose.

[checkers]

I was reading through the other topic about this, and looking back on my posts I was a bit rude there, I swore but mostly because I was really really angry and felt attacked after a few months of being signed up.
I cooled down after Trick posted, xD I liked Trick she was nice person to talk to and she seemed to understand why I was acting rude, she said herself she felt attacked just reading the topic and it wasn't about her.
It's strange, I'm signed up on anohter forum non-pet related and I haven't had one argument or angry post or even a rude sarcasm on between me and another user, maybe it's because I don't get along with some people here? :/

[EofS]

what good does ranting and arguing, do? nothing really.
It's just a way to publically (forum wise) upset or embarriss me.

I think you misunderstand the purpose of a topic like this. It is not to upset or embarrass you, it is for the community to discuss your behaviour and decide whether disciplinary action needs to be taken. And it is your chance (and anyone else's chance, of course) to speak up about your side of the matter.

Technically, yes, you could ignore this topic. But you lose the chance to defend yourself and you lose the chance to find out what you are doing which is problematic. And it doesn't speak highly about your regard for the community if you do not participate in a discussion of your future in it.

[checkers]

what good does ranting and arguing, do? nothing really.
It's just a way to publically (forum wise) upset or embarriss me.

I think you misunderstand the purpose of a topic like this. It is not to upset or embarrass you, it is for the community to discuss your behaviour and decide whether disciplinary action needs to be taken. And it is your chance (and anyone else's chance, of course) to speak up about your side of the matter.

Technically, yes, you could ignore this topic. But you lose the chance to defend yourself and you lose the chance to find out what you are doing which is problematic. And it doesn't speak highly about your regard for the community if you do not participate in a discussion of your future in it.

Well, I'm pretty much alone now Trick and Adi_Gallia were the only two sticking up for me in the past, now tricks gone and Adi_Gallia's said his bit, and it hasn't made much of a difference (thanks by the way :3)
I don't see what's going to happen, I really don't understand it. :/ I am reading this topic now, as I have seen what can come of it.