No, you're right. I did step over line there and I'm sorry. Like I said, one of those times when I ignored the little voice that said, "keep your mouth shut," which is almost always a mistake. The fact that several staff members (of which DNA is one) will behave in an unprofessional manner and then deny that it's inappropriate when called on it is very frustrating to me, but that's not an excuse for snarkiness myself.
One thing I will say that bothers me about that particular thread is something Luxe posted there, which she's also posted here and which bothered me then, too. It's the "we're just another user and we have a right to express our opinon just like any other user" mindset. Staff members aren't just another user: like it or not, when they speak as staff members on a Subeta-related forum, they represent Subeta. That means they aren't (or at least, shouldn't be) free to just express their opinion like another user without giving thought to whether it's appropriate to do so and how it represents the site.
I mean, there are now users falling all over themselves to apologize for perfectly legitimate criticisms of the Galactic Montre, which weren't even critiques of the art so much as saying the same things we are: that they don't like the wink, the fat belly, etc. on what is normally such an elegant pet. To my mind, that's a perfectly valid objection that was not inappropriately stated, and making users feel badly about having said it is Not On... and the fact that the drama on that particular thread was started by the staff and not the users is doubly Not On.
Chai and Dragon revamp (+ staff discussion)
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Wingsrising
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It's unfortunate, because staff-user interaction is one of the things that makes Subeta stand out, but I think there needs to be some restriction on staff posting on the Subeta forums.
As Wingsrising said, when they post there they are not 'just another user', they're representing the staff as a whole, and a few of them are really missing their diplomacy and tact chip. I fully appreciate that when people are complaining about your work it's easy to get defensive, and since quite a few of the redraws or redesigns lately have caused a stir the artists must be feeling more under attack than usual but it's really no excuse to lash out.
I'm remembering Adam and Snarkie during the first big change to Neopets, when advertising was added. It was a vastly unpopular move, but both of them were posting to the screaming masses over on PPT at the time and managed to remain friendly and professional even when under attack.
So far as I'm concerned, if one of the artists posts here, or on the subetaDB forums, <i>there</i> they are 'just another user' if they want to be. On the site itself they should be much more careful (and I have seen staff members posting aggressively or at least unhelpfully in other topics than art, I should add). Their words can and will be taken as the official stance on matters. The montre thread in question was merely started so people could give their opinions on the new pet, I didn't see anyone demanding change, or even being impolite. For staff members to jump in and flatten any 'creative differences' came across as incredibly heavy handed.
With regard to the montre's generally established demeanour and the given reasons for changing it in new redraws - I see no reason why old art shouldn't inform the new.
As Wingsrising said, when they post there they are not 'just another user', they're representing the staff as a whole, and a few of them are really missing their diplomacy and tact chip. I fully appreciate that when people are complaining about your work it's easy to get defensive, and since quite a few of the redraws or redesigns lately have caused a stir the artists must be feeling more under attack than usual but it's really no excuse to lash out.
I'm remembering Adam and Snarkie during the first big change to Neopets, when advertising was added. It was a vastly unpopular move, but both of them were posting to the screaming masses over on PPT at the time and managed to remain friendly and professional even when under attack.
So far as I'm concerned, if one of the artists posts here, or on the subetaDB forums, <i>there</i> they are 'just another user' if they want to be. On the site itself they should be much more careful (and I have seen staff members posting aggressively or at least unhelpfully in other topics than art, I should add). Their words can and will be taken as the official stance on matters. The montre thread in question was merely started so people could give their opinions on the new pet, I didn't see anyone demanding change, or even being impolite. For staff members to jump in and flatten any 'creative differences' came across as incredibly heavy handed.
With regard to the montre's generally established demeanour and the given reasons for changing it in new redraws - I see no reason why old art shouldn't inform the new.
The Artist Formerly Known As Amneris
I don't think there are really personal attacks, I just think a LOT of people are becoming more displeased with how chimera handles things. For instance, Rah seems to handle crit very well, and she even comes forth to speak on another board to users, and that is something I find brave and something to respect. Chimera, on the other hand, has a higher status tham artists, a user admin, and they have a job to help users. But she's an artist, I don't really see her on boards helping technical issues... But anyway, lately she's been passing off comments that definitely can be considered rude or inappropriate. So of course users will be offended by it.
I think when the dragon revamp came out, a chain of unfortunate events started. Users, I noticed, are getting a bit harsher in their crits too. I'm unsure if this is just because they HATE the revamps or because they are feeling uncomfortable around artists and losing that safety zone with them...
It's getting pretty ugly now though, I mean Subeta used to be pretty open to user opinion. Now they keep passing off comments like 'What happened to the days when users just ignored pets they didn't like?'
I think when the dragon revamp came out, a chain of unfortunate events started. Users, I noticed, are getting a bit harsher in their crits too. I'm unsure if this is just because they HATE the revamps or because they are feeling uncomfortable around artists and losing that safety zone with them...
It's getting pretty ugly now though, I mean Subeta used to be pretty open to user opinion. Now they keep passing off comments like 'What happened to the days when users just ignored pets they didn't like?'
Sorry to bring this topic up again, but I noticed Chimera had been asking if she really should revamp the dragon. I think this is a bit...well I don't have a word for it.
Keith said negotiations were being made with her, but I fail to see any hinting at progress, all I see is more 'Oh she's stuck' and 'We cant tell you what we are working on.
But, what has annoyed me, is that she just recently created a new species. Why isn't the dragon being worked on or at least someone telling is progress is being made? I look at the Tigrean and the Sheeta revamp. Poll goes up one day, 2 days later, after hearing critiques, another poll, few days later, revamp. All within a week. Yet the dragon is untouched. Yes it's an 'old subject' but I am still thoroughly displeased with how this is all being handled. I feel like staff is just trying to 'wait it out' and have users 'get used to it' instead of worrying to fix it.
Again, this is how -I- personally feel. Not saying everyone does. This is, as I stated, MY opinion.
Keith said negotiations were being made with her, but I fail to see any hinting at progress, all I see is more 'Oh she's stuck' and 'We cant tell you what we are working on.
But, what has annoyed me, is that she just recently created a new species. Why isn't the dragon being worked on or at least someone telling is progress is being made? I look at the Tigrean and the Sheeta revamp. Poll goes up one day, 2 days later, after hearing critiques, another poll, few days later, revamp. All within a week. Yet the dragon is untouched. Yes it's an 'old subject' but I am still thoroughly displeased with how this is all being handled. I feel like staff is just trying to 'wait it out' and have users 'get used to it' instead of worrying to fix it.
Again, this is how -I- personally feel. Not saying everyone does. This is, as I stated, MY opinion.
Chim did not create a new species. Arbor drew the latest species.Patrick wrote:Sorry to bring this topic up again, but I noticed Chimera had been asking if she really should revamp the dragon. I think this is a bit...well I don't have a word for it.
Keith said negotiations were being made with her, but I fail to see any hinting at progress, all I see is more 'Oh she's stuck' and 'We cant tell you what we are working on.
But, what has annoyed me, is that she just recently created a new species. Why isn't the dragon being worked on or at least someone telling is progress is being made? I look at the Tigrean and the Sheeta revamp. Poll goes up one day, 2 days later, after hearing critiques, another poll, few days later, revamp. All within a week. Yet the dragon is untouched. Yes it's an 'old subject' but I am still thoroughly displeased with how this is all being handled. I feel like staff is just trying to 'wait it out' and have users 'get used to it' instead of worrying to fix it.
Again, this is how -I- personally feel. Not saying everyone does. This is, as I stated, MY opinion.
The Tigrean and Sheeta revamps were also done by another artist, Jill.
Please do not assume that because you see a new pet come out or a new color, that all of the art department just stopped everything else they were doing and worked on it. Different pets are handled by different people, and one getting done faster than another may simply be due to one person having more free time, or the 'issues' with the drawing being easier to fix.
If the Dragon is revamped again, and frankly, I don't know what the scoop on that is... But if it is, don't expect it to happen quickly. Chim isn't stupid. And, contrary to popular assumption, she doesn't do thing to piss off users. She DOES want to make the userbase happy. So if the Dragon gets changed again, I am sure a lot of time and effort will go into making sure it's the final revamp.
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adi_gallia
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I think they were referring to the Archan, which is one of DNA's pets. It's not exactly old news yet and it has been added to the site since the Dragon revamp.Jessyta wrote:Chim did not create a new species. Arbor drew the latest species.
I am aware that if she is working on it, then it will take time, but since she has been questioning whether it needs as revamp it seems like what Keith told us may not be true. I'm pretty sure he has posted here on two occasions, promising us some sort of compromise on the Dragon. So I can see why they would be slightly annoyed if it turns out Keith was just telling us things to make us happy, when they weren't true.
Ah. That makes sense. To me, once another species comes out, the one before is no longer 'new' xD
The Archan was in the works a LONG time before it was released. Like, months and months. So while I can see how some may think that Chim blew off the possible 2nd revamp of the Dragon for a different, all new species, the reality is the Archan was in works for quite some time.
I think some people may not realize just how much happens behind the scenes, and just how long the art department will sometimes work on something before the rest of the site becomes aware what is happening.
The Archan was in the works a LONG time before it was released. Like, months and months. So while I can see how some may think that Chim blew off the possible 2nd revamp of the Dragon for a different, all new species, the reality is the Archan was in works for quite some time.
I think some people may not realize just how much happens behind the scenes, and just how long the art department will sometimes work on something before the rest of the site becomes aware what is happening.
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adi_gallia
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Oh, I know that the artists can sometimes have projects in line for months that sometimes take a while for release. Rah said the Archan was worked on for a while before being released. Arbor also said the new BR Torrent was done a while before being released.Jessyta wrote:The Archan was in the works a LONG time before it was released. Like, months and months. So while I can see how some may think that Chim blew off the possible 2nd revamp of the Dragon for a different, all new species, the reality is the Archan was in works for quite some time.
A lot of us know that artists plan and work on their art quite a while before it's released to the public, but not everyone knows that, so I can see why some users could think DNA forgot about the Dragon re-revamp by drawing the Archan, when in reality the Archan was planned before the Dragon's first revamp was done.
Perhaps a note on the Announcement regarding the Dragon re-revamp could be put up, like the one currently there for the Feli? At least if the people get a note there, they know it's still in the pipeline, even if it may take more than a few weeks to appear, this all depends on whether the second revamp is going through of course.
I saw less fuss over the revamps of the Sheeta and Tigrean and they got touched up just fine. The Dragon had for more drastic complaints, so I think it should be reworked, like the Feli is now. But I should probably stop telling the Staff what I think should happen.
Right, what Ali gallia said.
I meant the archan not the Legeica
Anyway, I didn't know the archan was made awhile ago. And sometimes it's hard understanding how artists work. On forums I saw a post with someone saying they wanted gas masks, and a day later chim had made some and had them added right away, so sometimes I get that sense that things come out faster than others.
I agree with adi though, a LOT of the other revamps recieved less critism but were revamped faster as opposed to the dragon which was heavily critique and is still untouched.
I'd also like to point out you said 'IF' it was revamped, which immeadiately makes me think it's not a top priority when it should be. At least I think so. The way staff talks, it makes me more wary.
Edit: But priority I don't mean 'OMG DO IT NOW" I mean like as far as revamps go.
Edit: Also, I know Chim does NOT do all the pets.
Tsume did the wyllop, Telenine Revamp, etc, I even remember the ORIGINAL artist who had been the artist of both the telenine and original fester. I hope you guys don't think that I Think only one artist does everything when I am a strong advocate for having more than one art style
Which is why I miss Lina Blade's Dragon.
I meant the archan not the Legeica
Anyway, I didn't know the archan was made awhile ago. And sometimes it's hard understanding how artists work. On forums I saw a post with someone saying they wanted gas masks, and a day later chim had made some and had them added right away, so sometimes I get that sense that things come out faster than others.I agree with adi though, a LOT of the other revamps recieved less critism but were revamped faster as opposed to the dragon which was heavily critique and is still untouched.
I'd also like to point out you said 'IF' it was revamped, which immeadiately makes me think it's not a top priority when it should be. At least I think so. The way staff talks, it makes me more wary.
Edit: But priority I don't mean 'OMG DO IT NOW" I mean like as far as revamps go.
Edit: Also, I know Chim does NOT do all the pets.
Tsume did the wyllop, Telenine Revamp, etc, I even remember the ORIGINAL artist who had been the artist of both the telenine and original fester. I hope you guys don't think that I Think only one artist does everything when I am a strong advocate for having more than one art style
Which is why I miss Lina Blade's Dragon.To clarify: I said if because while I do see SOME of what happens in the Art Deparement, there is still a lot that I don't see, even as a staff member.
So please don't take my IF as meaning it won't happen. I honestly do not know what's going to happen. If Keith said a revamp will happen, he knows better then me. He has the ability to MAKE it happen. I just don't want to come in here as a User Admin and say 'THE DRAGON WILL BE REVAMPED' when I do not have the authority to make it happen, the rank to make it a priority, or the knowledge of when it would happen, ect... That makes me look like a fool, it makes the staff as a whole look unorganized and unprofessional, and it doesn't do you guys any good!
So please don't take my IF as meaning it won't happen. I honestly do not know what's going to happen. If Keith said a revamp will happen, he knows better then me. He has the ability to MAKE it happen. I just don't want to come in here as a User Admin and say 'THE DRAGON WILL BE REVAMPED' when I do not have the authority to make it happen, the rank to make it a priority, or the knowledge of when it would happen, ect... That makes me look like a fool, it makes the staff as a whole look unorganized and unprofessional, and it doesn't do you guys any good!
Sorry 'bout that Jessyta. I figured maybe you had an idea if it was being revamped or not! Keith said they'd work on it, so I'll wait and see if that happens. I just don't like to be left hanging. If they weren't going to re-revamp, they could just say 'We're not doing it' and there is a resolution. Currently for me there is no resolution. It's like reading a mystery novel, and the killer has a knife ready to plunge into the detective's back and when you turn the page... it's been torn out! I know, silly example, but that's how I see it.
... What the fuck.
No, seriously, what the everliving fuck. I know this an internet game and all and getting panties in a wad over something over it is ridiculous, but goddammit, we were promised a revamp because this one is just gross.
Way to go, DNA. I do so love your final stab at us about it.
The Angelic Dragon was THE reason I joined the site. Once it gets revamped (JUST BRING BACK THE GODDAMN WHISKERS) ... that's just so shitty I can't even explain it.
(I brought it to this thread to prevent hijacking the Revamps thread.)
edit: Of course, DNA is sitting in the thread snarling at anyone who disagrees going "THEN DON'T GET A DRAGON."
No, seriously, what the everliving fuck. I know this an internet game and all and getting panties in a wad over something over it is ridiculous, but goddammit, we were promised a revamp because this one is just gross.
Way to go, DNA. I do so love your final stab at us about it.
The Angelic Dragon was THE reason I joined the site. Once it gets revamped (JUST BRING BACK THE GODDAMN WHISKERS) ... that's just so shitty I can't even explain it.
(I brought it to this thread to prevent hijacking the Revamps thread.)
edit: Of course, DNA is sitting in the thread snarling at anyone who disagrees going "THEN DON'T GET A DRAGON."
Last edited by Mayhem on 24 Aug 2007 08:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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